Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower • Hacker News Board

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#251

Post by natmaster » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 5:05 AM UTC

jusben1369 wrote: post #131

mattmaroon wrote: post #59

I'm sorry but this is insane. I guess I can only speak to the segment of the tech industry I've been exposed to, but a woman would not be labelled a liability for reporting a rape or an assault, unless maybe it turned out to be false, in which case that's no different than any other industry. I am sure workplace rape and assault happens in every industry, unfortunately, but I've seen no evidence it's more common or a…

If you look through the comments here and in other similar threads you'll see numerous variations on the "what wait? just leave." It's an understandable but wrong response to these situations. It shifts the problem from the perpetrator to the victim. It's similar to asking women to be covered from head to toe so that they can't somehow tempt males. The onus isn't on the male to control his desires it's on the female…

Why leave? Report those issues. The real question is why just let it slide and then write a blog about it.

Rape is not something you should just let people get away with and move on with your life

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#252

Post by Dylan16807 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 5:20 AM UTC

randyrand wrote: post #218

rayiner wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you threaten to punch someone in the face if she doesn't sleep with you, that's clearly rape. If you threaten to fire someone if she doesn't sleep with you, some people wouldn't call that rape (and the law wouldn't either). But I'd rather get punched in the face then lose a job I worked really hard to get. So why do we consider the latter not as bad? The belief that physical coercion is worse than economic coercio…

You bring up a good point, but the law is very clear and intentional (in illinois). "Uses force or the threat of force." It means that even if you decline you have no choice but to have sex with them. You will be forced to. In the white-collar situation, you can say no, even if you don't want to.

Wait, are you sure that's how to interpret "threat of force"? I would assume that a threat of beating someone up and then leaving would qualify. You disagree?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#253

Post by jrochkind1 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 5:21 AM UTC

Wow. This is such a good piece. Seriously, this is incredibly well-thought out and well-written, in a very intentional way. Thanks to the author.

I am pleased that it's on the HN front page. And I was at first pleased to see such a long comments thread, that people were interested in discussing it.

But man, this discussion is depressing me. Arguing about the legal definition of rape, really, that's what HN feels like talking about in response to this piece?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#254

Post by joyeuse6701 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 5:22 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #56

abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

I've been pressured into sexual favors, and I said no, because my dignity was worth more than a job. Been assaulted before by someone with much more power, fought back too. When life shits on you, you have a decision to make, and that decision lies squarely with you the victim.

Every question you've asked is based on fear. Doing nothing because of that fear is cowardice. You are defending it. Stop it. Nothing can be borne from it.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#255

Post by Dylan16807 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 5:23 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #250

rayiner wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you threaten to punch someone in the face if she doesn't sleep with you, that's clearly rape. If you threaten to fire someone if she doesn't sleep with you, some people wouldn't call that rape (and the law wouldn't either). But I'd rather get punched in the face then lose a job I worked really hard to get. So why do we consider the latter not as bad? The belief that physical coercion is worse than economic coercio…

But I'd rather get punched in the face then lose a job I worked really hard to get. So why do we consider the latter not as bad? This is strangely reminiscent of a lot of arguments that men's rights activists make. Namely, they'd rather be raped than lose 50% of their income to paternity fraud. They even attach a prefix to the word rape - "divorce rape" instead of "white collar rape". I take it you also support their…

Where the hell did you get that. rayiner is only comparing punching vs. firing. They're making a point entirely about coercion, not directly about rape.

If those guys were talking about getting punched in the face vs. paternity, then you might have a good comparison.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#256

Post by abalone » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 5:23 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #56

abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

I don't mean to split hairs but legally it looks like many or most states draw a distinction between sexual extortion and rape.[1] The difference being that sextortion is a lesser felony.

I wonder if that is the case here. Certainly sextortion among engineers/scientists would be an extraordinarily troubling state of affairs. But based on the OP's comments here[2] she is referring to rape and that the enabling factor had something to do with social life being mixed up with professional life. So, not exactly extortion but it would have been costly to avoid the person.

This may be pie in the sky but I wonder if a concrete step that startups can take to reduce problems like this is to make a conscious effort to not penalize employees for not attending off-hours social events. Aside from acquaintance rape, obviously, there's also things like not penalizing older employees with kids to go home to or alcoholics who need to avoid enabling environments.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextortion

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9168365

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#257

Post by jrochkind1 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 5:28 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #250

rayiner wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you threaten to punch someone in the face if she doesn't sleep with you, that's clearly rape. If you threaten to fire someone if she doesn't sleep with you, some people wouldn't call that rape (and the law wouldn't either). But I'd rather get punched in the face then lose a job I worked really hard to get. So why do we consider the latter not as bad? The belief that physical coercion is worse than economic coercio…

But I'd rather get punched in the face then lose a job I worked really hard to get. So why do we consider the latter not as bad? This is strangely reminiscent of a lot of arguments that men's rights activists make. Namely, they'd rather be raped than lose 50% of their income to paternity fraud. They even attach a prefix to the word rape - "divorce rape" instead of "white collar rape". I take it you also support their…

One involves sexual coercion, the other does not, that's the clear principle 'separating' the two, since rape means coercing someone to have sex. I'm surprised that's not clear.

I understand that criminal law appropriately distinguishes between different levels of severity in harmful and socially undesirable behavior, one way or another. But when people start trying to finely parse what kinds of sexual coercion are 'really rape' and what kinds aren't... it's awfully creepy, and sounds like they're looking for an excuse to justify some kinds of sexual coercion. Why would you want to support, justify, or perpetrate (even accidentally), any kind of sexual coercion? Wouldn't you want to try and prevent it from ever happening? You're sounding kind of creepy, friend.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#258

Post by AstroChimpHam » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 5:30 AM UTC

> Realistically, only bad things happen to the whistleblower. So when someone tries to discredit one, ask yourself — what could the whistleblower’s motive possibly be? They’re knowingly ruining their own lives.

Whistle blowers become folk heroes to a lot of people. No one cared what Edward Snowden, the NSA analyst had to say. Everyone cares what Edward Snowden, the whistleblower has to say. If you want that kind of popularity and respect, be a whistleblower. I'm by no means saying that's the motivation for all whistleblowers, but I'd be dumbfounded if it wasn't the motivation for some, and separating the two is frequently difficult.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#259

Post by jrochkind1 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 5:34 AM UTC

jobposter1234 wrote: post #231

drostie wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a much simpler definition of "rape" as "being coerced into having sex that you do not want to have." It, of course, is not the present legal definition of rape. But it's something that's easy to talk about and to use in conversation. In other words, the point is that sex is put into a separate sphere of activity from other ordinarily-pleasant experiences and given a dignity which is not special to those other…

Is sex somehow fundamentally different than every* other act that it should be treated so differently? * Every. If I used my power at work to make you eat a literal lunch of feces, is that more or less egregious? I know what my gut would say, but why? Isn't the core bad behavior the concept of abrogating another human's free will? Why is sex in this other classification? Edit: put another way, why is it that being co…

Sure, that would be fucked up, wouldn't it?

Fortunately, we don't have too much of a problem with some people forcing other people to eat feces, in the workplace or elsewhere. Or with people scared to complain about their bosses making them eat shit, for fear of ruining their career.

We do have a pretty big problem with sexual violence, sexual coercion, and gender-based discrimination, in the workplace and elsewhere.

A whole bunch of this thread is people wanting to have abstract philosophical arguments, instead of dealing with what's really going on. Abstract philosophical arguments can be fun, when stoned in a dorm room, under-taken between people who find them fun (usually because they're about things that do not have life-or-death consequences... at least for the people in the room).

But they're no substitute for discussion (and action) focused on what's actually going on in the world, people who are being hurt (and I don't mean their 'feelings are hurt'), people who are hurting them (sometimes, but not always, without realizing it), and what to do about it.

I think the OP was pretty masterful in keeping a focus on what's actually going on, and what to do about it, practically, in the real world we live in. HN is showing a masterful ability to turn it into diversionary irrelevant mental masturbation instead, which is depressing me, I actually expected better for some reason.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#260

Post by pekk » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 5:39 AM UTC

randyrand wrote: post #201

rayiner wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence I was curious if this is technically rape in my home state (Illinois) so I looked it up... edit: Already downvoted? C'mon this is relevant! (720 ILCS 5/11-1.20) (was 720 ILCS 5/12-13) Sec. 11-1.20. Criminal Sexual Assault. (a) A person commits criminal sexual assault if that person commits an act of sexual penetration and: (1) uses…

Are you arguing that blackmailing someone into having sex with you, or threatening them with consequences like having your career ended, isn't rape in the state of Illinois?

Why?