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Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

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Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#201

Post by randyrand »

rayiner wrote: post #56
abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence

I was curious if this is technically rape in my home state (Illinois) so I looked it up...

edit: Already downvoted? C'mon this is relevant!

  (720 ILCS 5/11-1.20) (was 720 ILCS 5/12-13) 
    Sec. 11-1.20. Criminal Sexual Assault. 
  (a) A person commits criminal sexual assault if that person commits an act of sexual penetration and:
        (1) uses force or threat of force;
        (2) knows that the victim is unable to understand the nature of the act or is unable to give knowing consent;
        (3) is a family member of the victim, and the victim is under 18 years of age; or
        (4) is 17 years of age or over and holds a position of trust, authority, or supervision in relation to the victim, and the victim is at least 13 years of age but under 18 years of age.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#202

Post by Estragon »

wongarsu wrote: post #175
Estragon wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you expect women to wear wires whenever they're sexually harassed? Since the twitter response is predictable by now, and sexual harassment tends to occur over repeated interactions, it's surprising that woman haven't started to make recordings of sexual harassment before making allegations about it.

I don't know about America, but in my country that would likely be illegal. You can't just record everybody without consent.

In the US it varies by state.[1] In "one-party consent" states, you can record any conversation you yourself participate in. California is an "all-party consent" state, though, so this approach wouldn't work for most tech companies.

[1] http://www.gshllp.com/download/general_firm_documents/WEB%20...

[2] http://blog.ogletreedeakins.com/sixth-circuit-rules-employer...

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#203

Post by needacig »

hrktb wrote: post #3

The title with punctuation: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready To Call Somebody a Whistleblower I found it intersting, but there is a part I couldn't really understand. Does she define rape as an aggretion and not just grey area sex? Because as I understand it it would fall under criminal charges, not 'sexism', most of the time there would be physical/tangible proofs attached to it, and the police arres…

She explains that she could not have reported the rape without destroying most of her personal and professional relationships, because the perpetrator was someone who was central in her social circles.

See her comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9168542

I think this is pretty common and is why many rapes go un-reported. Reporting some criminal stranger on the street who jumps you seems like a no brainer to me, but reporting someone you thought was a friend and who is friends with most of your friends? I bet a lot of people decide it's not worth upending their lives and starting over for.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#204

Post by needacig »

abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

She explains that she could not have reported the rape without destroying most of her personal and professional relationships, because the perpetrator was someone who was central in her social circles (possibly even considered a friend before that).

See her comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9168542

I think this is pretty common and is why many rapes go un-reported. Reporting some criminal stranger on the street who jumps you seems like a no brainer to me, but reporting someone you thought was a friend and who is friends with most of your friends? I bet a lot of people decide it's not worth upending their lives and starting over for.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#205

Post by nknighthb »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #189
nknighthb wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not according to the California penal code. Duress suffices, and duress is not limited to physical force. http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/9/1/s261 "(b) As used in this section, "duress" means a direct or implied threat of force, violence, danger, or retribution sufficient to coerce a reasonable person of ordinary susceptibilities to perform an act which otherwise would not have been performed, or acquiesce…

Read that whole section. 261.7 refers to public officials abusing their authority, and duress is defined in that context.

Incorrect. The paragraph I quoted is 261(b). The paragraph you are talking about is 261(a)(7), part of 261(a). Note that 261(a)(7) never even uses the word "duress".

Furthermore, 261(b) says "this section". The "section" is 261, not 261(a)(7). Note also that 261(a)(7) calls itself "this paragraph", not "this section".

261.7 is a completely different section concerning the evidentiary value of birth control methods: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/9/1/s261.7

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#206

Post by code_reuse »

unepipe wrote: post #101
woofyman wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not rape. Rape is sexual intercourse without consent. Edited to clarify. Oral sex without consent is also rape. Threatening to fire someone unless they give them a BJ is sexual harassment.

Forced oral sex is also by definition rape. And is it consent, despite performing a sexual act, if a "no" causes you severe harm (in this case financial/career harm) and you truly didn't want to do that sexual act, but you acted out of fear and coercion?

How is it forced sex if he/she can simply quit and then go get another job ? I mean I think that it's sexual harassment and a horrendous crime, but it's not the same thing as rape.

It sounds like the young lady experienced sexual harassment and decided that it was worth it to willingfuly have sex with a coworker in order to continue to prop up a financial relationship so that she wouldn't have to deal with the burden of needing to take on some debt, or move in with a relative while she goes out to find another job.

You are assuming that she can somehow show evidence that she believed that it was nearly impossible for her to get another job, and in addition that she believed that losing her income stream would have caused her or her children to actually starve to death. Maybe if she lived in a POW camp where prisoners are assigned strict food rations and a guard was threatening her with losing her only way to get a meal then it would make sense to call it rape rather than sexual harassment. In America though you can go work at McDonalds if you don't have a prior felony record or even go to a homeless shelter.

She could have just sued the bastard to recoup those losses anyways right ? (in theory) Especially if she has that legal background.

I'm not trying to defend the criminal who sexually harassed her but I am trying to point out that falsely accusing someone of rape is a serious crime unto itself.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#207

Post by Mandatum »

Jemaclus wrote: post #181

As a hetero male that is relatively new to management, what can I do to let my direct reports, indirect reports, and other colleagues know that they can report these kinds of things to me, and I will take them seriously? I don't have any women reporting directly to me right now, but it's very likely to happen over the next year, and I want to be proactive from the get-go.

Address or write about the issue publicly.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#208

Post by logic404 »

JohnBooty wrote: post #95
golemotron wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that as a heterosexual man, regardless of my financial circumstances, no one could coerce me into giving blowjobs under the threat of losing my job. I'd quit and take my chances. What am I missing here?

From one heterosexual man to another, surely we can see that we're in a different situation than this woman was. Also, > Young associate worked for this partner I don't know how the legal profession works. But: 1. It's quite likely that leaving firm as a young associate carries a huge negative connotation. In other words, her choices might not have been "give a blowjob" or "quit and find another job." It might have b…

From one heterosexual man to another, surely we can see that we're in a different situation than this woman was.

I am genuinely curious about this point. Why are men in a different situation? Couldn't a homosexual boss want to coerce blowjobs from male subordinates?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#209

Post by tracker1 »

smt88 wrote: post #2

I didn't understand what this was about, based on the title. As it turned out, it's an incredibly interesting, important, and sad essay on the severe consequences that exist for women who fight for their own physical/emotional safety (and the safety of others). If you want to know how people can repeatedly rape coworkers and get away with it, you should read this article.

I think it all sucks... on the one hand, being falsly accused of something because someone made a bad decision in a moment, or exaggerated is pretty bad.

* Two people get drunk and hook up after a party... afterwards the woman cries rape. (there's a difference between rape and a bad decision)

* A person asks another person they work with out. (this isn't harassment, though once a firm no is given they should not ask again)

The problem with the first, is it does happen, for any number of reasons... the second less so, but often women will give a soft decline instead of just saying they aren't interested.

On the flip side, continual harassment, rape, sexism and just general asshole behavior does exist, and should rightly be called out. The trouble is, without repeated offenses, it's almost impossible to know the difference as an outsider.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#210

Post by Mandatum »

empressplay wrote: post #75

I've heard men in the tech space who I would normally have considered very nice people say extremely sexist / homophobic / transphobic things. When I've called them out on it, they've been surprised that anyone was offended. As I've said, otherwise really nice guys, but they seem to have just thought such comments were acceptable in the context of the 'community'. Strange stuff.

Have also seen casual sexism and racism used. I assume these people aren't racist or sexist to the point it would affect anything they do professionally, however it does detract from my view of them.

On the other hand I swear like a sailor, although I try to pull back from it in public - I occasionally slip. Especially when I'm dropping the C bomb (usually targeted at an inanimate object).

Is it unprofessional? Yes. Should I be judged? Fuck yes. Do I care?

Yep.

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