Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower • Hacker News Board

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#161

Post by hrktb » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:13 AM UTC

jusben1369 wrote: post #131

mattmaroon wrote: post #59

I'm sorry but this is insane. I guess I can only speak to the segment of the tech industry I've been exposed to, but a woman would not be labelled a liability for reporting a rape or an assault, unless maybe it turned out to be false, in which case that's no different than any other industry. I am sure workplace rape and assault happens in every industry, unfortunately, but I've seen no evidence it's more common or a…

If you look through the comments here and in other similar threads you'll see numerous variations on the "what wait? just leave." It's an understandable but wrong response to these situations. It shifts the problem from the perpetrator to the victim. It's similar to asking women to be covered from head to toe so that they can't somehow tempt males. The onus isn't on the male to control his desires it's on the female…

Perhaps I'll give another perspective. A coworker had sexual harassment problems with one of our managers, and eventually she left the company. I cross checked, and the other managers knew about it but didn't do anything. I also left the company.

A place where abusing a coworker is OK is just a bad place to work. You might not be the target of the abuse at that time, but you'll get shafted for any other reason on any other subject (e.g. raises, project assignments, perks...).

Basically if it's just one bad apple, you should get help outing the problem. If most of the company is fucked up, you'll have to decide if you really want to stay there, and for me more often than not it's not worth it. Leaving a job can be seen as a privilege, but if you're actually getting regular abuse, it might as well be the only sane choice.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#162

Post by Dewie » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:13 AM UTC

coordinated wrote: post #88

tomlock wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd challenge everyone who hasn't seen this in the workplace to talk to their close female friends about the issue. You may be surprised by their stories!

I'm using a throwaway here since my normal account is my real name. My mom went to Long Beach to meet my dad before they got married. He was returning from Vietnam at the end of the war. She was gangraped in a alley by about five guys. My sister was raped by my cousin when she was 13 and we were on a camping trip. She is 40 years old now and after a night out crashed on a friends couch and woke up to him jerking off…

> If you have a mom and sister the odds are pretty good one of them have been raped.

Dropping truth-bombs are we.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#163

Post by brighteyes » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:18 AM UTC

teraflop wrote: post #148

brighteyes wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ellis example is a good one, I think. She went public with concrete names and bad things that happened to her while working at Google, regarding both an engineering manager Rod Chavez, and a VP, Vic Gondotra. While there were a few of the expected "where's the proof" people on Twitter, as Kelly said, the large majority of responses she got were supportive, from lots of men and women. In addition, in the google+ t…

> While there were a few of the expected "where's the proof" people on Twitter, as Kelly said, the large majority of responses she got were supportive, from lots of men and women. You raise a good point, but the problem is that not all supportiveness is equal. There are a lot of people who share their opinions when an incident like this goes public, and depending on what communities you happen to draw the attention o…

The reluctance is understandable. But we can't understate the positive: In that very google+ thread, more than one former colleague from Google said something to the effect of "I've always considered you someone to try to hire for my future startup, and I still do."

In other words, even if some wary bosses would see any whistleblowing as a risk factor, the fact is that the large majority of responses she got were positive. People believe her, and people strongly feel she got treated unfairly. She's also, according to many accounts, a talented engineer. Signs for her future employment are very positive.

She also mentioned herself that her current job at Medium is with a very supportive team. (edit: i misunderstood something here)

Once more, none of this is to diminish the understandable concerns with going public with allegations. But in the Ellis case, I think we see that the overall outcome can be quite positive. It's good for the whistleblower, it's good for the tech industry as a whole, it's really just bad only for the small amount of bad people we need to get rid of.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#164

Post by SwellJoe » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:20 AM UTC

Dewie wrote: post #145

SwellJoe wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used both terms interchangeably in several comments in this thread. I wouldn't read anything into it.

You haven't used the word "female" anywhere that I can see. :)

Alright, if you insist on an explanation: In this particular comment, I had originally written "white, middle class, males", but then decided that wasn't useful specificity in this particular conversation. I deleted the adjectives and kept the subject noun untouched. I apologize for causing cognitive dissonance for you due to the difference. I assure it is not out of self-hatred, or any sort of intent to make men seem of a different species than women.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#165

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:23 AM UTC

indrx wrote: post #146

JohnBooty wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From one heterosexual man to another, surely we can see that we're in a different situation than this woman was. Also, > Young associate worked for this partner I don't know how the legal profession works. But: 1. It's quite likely that leaving firm as a young associate carries a huge negative connotation. In other words, her choices might not have been "give a blowjob" or "quit and find another job." It might have b…

But it's not "rape" unless the coercion involved threats of violence, cf http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&gr... It is sexual harassment though.

only in some legal jurisdictions with outdated notions of "rape"

And even in those, rape is often the proper word, it's just not used in the legal text for historical reasons.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#166

Post by swatow » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:25 AM UTC

Lazare wrote: post #126

swatow wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you clarify what sort of coercion was involved? My understanding is that rape does involve physical violence, or at least physical coercion. In particular, "give me a blowjob or you are fired" is not rape, but "give me a blowjob or I'm not unlocking the door" is.

Rape is a colloquial term for a range of specific crimes with technical legal definitions. In NZ, for example, the former would be the crime of "Sexual conduct with consent induced by certain threats" (penalty of up to 14 years in prison), whereas the latter would be the crime of "sexual violation" (penalty of up to 20 years in prison). Other countries might lump them together, or call them different names. If you're…

You say that rape is a colloquial term for a range of specific crimes and chide me for not being more specific. And yet the person I replied to was making a positive claim that certain actions were rape. So how am I supposed to interpret that claim? Does rape take on a different meaning (e.g. a broader feminist definition) in that context?

If rape is defined to be a crime or class of crimes, it's completely unreasonable to selectively ask people to be very specific about which crimes they mean. In the US I don't believe there is any such crime as rape by threatening to fire someone, or if there is it is not a serious crime.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#167

Post by pron » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:27 AM UTC

golemotron wrote: post #86

woofyman wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not rape. Rape is sexual intercourse without consent. Edited to clarify. Oral sex without consent is also rape. Threatening to fire someone unless they give them a BJ is sexual harassment.

The word 'rape' is being re-defined now. The definition is being expanded far beyond what we called rape 20 years ago. Feminists are trying to do this in order to call attention to sexual harassment, but it is backfiring. They will dilute the term to the point where violent rape is no longer seen as the uniformly more serious offense that it is.

> Feminists are trying to do this in order to call attention to sexual harassment

Not at all. Feminists are doing it to call attention to the true nature of power, and the fact that power is expressed in many ways -- only one of them is physical violence. When your attacker possesses power and you don't, that means that you don't have options (or that they are severely restricted). If you don't have options because someone else restricts them, well, that's the definition of coercion, and sex under coercion means rape.

The definition hasn't changed; rape has always been sex under coercion. All that's changed is that now the law reflects our better understanding of power.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#168

Post by mcantelon » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:29 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #120

mattmaroon wrote: post #59

I'm sorry but this is insane. I guess I can only speak to the segment of the tech industry I've been exposed to, but a woman would not be labelled a liability for reporting a rape or an assault, unless maybe it turned out to be false, in which case that's no different than any other industry. I am sure workplace rape and assault happens in every industry, unfortunately, but I've seen no evidence it's more common or a…

I don't think there's a particular reason to believe this is significantly worse in tech than it is elsewhere (although if this I'm wrong, I'd definitely appreciate being corrected on this). But there are a few things I'd say: - Tech has this particular weird cultural self-view that we all see ourselves and each other as middle-school nerds emerging victorious, as people who got past the bullies and the ills of "norm…

I find it doubtful that tech is worse than, for example, the finance industry (with its rich history of decadence and debauchery). I also find it "interesting" that the tech industry seems to have replaced the finance industry (whose shenanigans put the West into recession) as the focus of media critique.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#169

Post by hrktb » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:32 AM UTC

tveita wrote: post #17

hrktb wrote: post #3

The title with punctuation: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready To Call Somebody a Whistleblower I found it intersting, but there is a part I couldn't really understand. Does she define rape as an aggretion and not just grey area sex? Because as I understand it it would fall under criminal charges, not 'sexism', most of the time there would be physical/tangible proofs attached to it, and the police arres…

I'm sorry, could you define what you mean by "grey area sex"?

I think Littletimmy's answer is pretty much what I had in mind. To explain a bit more, there can be situation where sex happens but one of the party could not refuse for various reasons, and the other party have deniability of coercing.

For instance, a boss asking an employee for sex after a diner, and the employee feels coerced but doesn't say anything.

Effectively it would be rape, the boss should not be considered innocent of profiting from a position of power, but it can be argued that the employee could have legitimely wanted to have sex judging from his/her attitude.

For me that's grey in the sense that while from the employee's point of view it's rape, from a third party point of view it's hard to factually prove so.

To be clear, I don't use 'grey' in the sense that it should not be punishable or anything, it's not a value judgement, just that from a legal point of view it's trickier than violent rape.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#170

Post by pron » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:33 AM UTC

mattmaroon wrote: post #59

I'm sorry but this is insane. I guess I can only speak to the segment of the tech industry I've been exposed to, but a woman would not be labelled a liability for reporting a rape or an assault, unless maybe it turned out to be false, in which case that's no different than any other industry. I am sure workplace rape and assault happens in every industry, unfortunately, but I've seen no evidence it's more common or a…

> a woman would not be labelled a liability for reporting a rape or an assault

Well, but that's the problem. She's not saying she will be labelled a liability, but that the environment she works in makes her fear that she would.

As sexism is all about power[1], this is how power works. It's not only in the written rules, but in the atmosphere. Those in the position of less power feel afraid to take advantage of the law/rules, because they're afraid this will somehow be used against them, whether this is what will actually happen or not. You see this not only among women in tech, but among groups that have for a long time been on the receiving end of law enforcement when it comes to calling the police. This fear that the rules won't work in your favor is a great demonstration of how power works.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political)