Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower • Hacker News Board

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#141

Post by grey-area » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:56 AM UTC

mattmaroon wrote: post #64

grey-area wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't this being reported to the police? That's pretty much what the entire article is about - the risks of taking this before a court or even just bringing it up internally in a company; the potential damage to reputation, career and wellbeing can outweigh the slim possibility of justice (and it is a slim one, because often there are no witnesses). Just talking about this would be a huge decision for anyone, let…

The chances are NOT slim. They are 58%. source: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/19/myths-a... As many as 12% of rapes lead to a conviction, which is not slim when you consider the amount that are unreported. It's also silly to compare reporting a rape to an NSA whistleblower. I would pass someone up for a job for giving away company secrets, even if they were ones I didn't agree with. I would never…

12% of rapes lead to a conviction

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#142

Post by jusben1369 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:57 AM UTC

RowanH wrote: post #43

mrbig4545 wrote: post #29

I can't help but think this is a problem in america and not a problem in tech. Over here (UK) I've never seen or heard of anything like this. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and I've just never seen it. Either way, it's not on and it needs to stop

I'd like to say having worked in both Canada and New Zealand over 18 odd years now and I've never seen anything like this also. I read these articles and I'm simply stunned. I keep wondering what the heck is going on in companies/cultures/environments for these things to happen. Every time I read an article along these lines I feel even more grateful to work in environments where there haven't been glass ceilings, hi…

Other people have made this comment but I'll repeat it. Have you ever talked about this with female colleagues? It's scary what they tell you. I would say 95% of males get through their entire working career without ever feeling sexually uncomfortable or worse from another colleague at least once. I'd say about 10% of females would say that was true. Seriously, go talk with them.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#143

Post by Thriptic » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:57 AM UTC

brandonmenc wrote: post #115

Thriptic wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even elite, lifelong female powerlifters max out at weights that a man in the same weight class can throw up for reps with just a moderate amount of training. That's not a true statement. A quick look at the IPF female world records shows an unequipped lifter putting up a 230 kg squat at 107 kg body weight. That would be considered almost an elite lift for a male of the same weight class, which requires far more th…

I'm not talking about world records - I'm talking about typical numbers that get put up in competition.

Yea it all depends on how you define moderate amount of training. Elite qualification for females would probably be achievable for the average untrained male in the same weight class in a few years of focused training.

http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/1793

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#144

Post by indrx » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:57 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #56

abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence.

The definition of rape in California says nothing about "coercion":

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&gr...

It does mention "duress" which implies a threat of violence. If your friend's boss was not threatening violence then it's wrong to call it rape.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#145

Post by Dewie » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:59 AM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #121

Dewie wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you indicate "men" as "males", but "women" as "women" and not "females"? Seems odd.

I've used both terms interchangeably in several comments in this thread. I wouldn't read anything into it.

You haven't used the word "female" anywhere that I can see. :)

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#146

Post by indrx » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:59 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #95

golemotron wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that as a heterosexual man, regardless of my financial circumstances, no one could coerce me into giving blowjobs under the threat of losing my job. I'd quit and take my chances. What am I missing here?

From one heterosexual man to another, surely we can see that we're in a different situation than this woman was. Also, > Young associate worked for this partner I don't know how the legal profession works. But: 1. It's quite likely that leaving firm as a young associate carries a huge negative connotation. In other words, her choices might not have been "give a blowjob" or "quit and find another job." It might have b…

But it's not "rape" unless the coercion involved threats of violence, cf http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&gr...

It is sexual harassment though.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#147

Post by nknighthb » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:00 AM UTC

indrx wrote: post #144

rayiner wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. The definition of rape in California says nothing about "coercion": http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&gr... It does mention "duress" which implies a threat of violence. If your friend's boss was not threatening violence then it's wrong to call it rape.

Keep reading your own link. Duress includes "retribution" not limited to physical violence.

" (b) As used in this section, "duress" means a direct or implied threat of force, violence, danger, or retribution sufficient to coerce a reasonable person of ordinary susceptibilities to perform an act which otherwise would not have been performed, or acquiesce in an act to which one otherwise would not have submitted. The total circumstances, including the age of the victim, and his or her relationship to the defendant, are factors to consider in appraising the existence of duress."

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#148

Post by teraflop » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:01 AM UTC

brighteyes wrote: post #63

danso wrote: post #21

I don't know what it's like to be raped or sexually harassed, but I am frequently amused at how skeptics think it's so cut-and-dry to just report the issue. This came up in Kelly Ellis's public revelation yesterday that she had been sexually harassed at Google. The Twitter thread starts here: https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574092972624490497 The following is Ellis's statement, and then one of her more earnes…

The Ellis example is a good one, I think. She went public with concrete names and bad things that happened to her while working at Google, regarding both an engineering manager Rod Chavez, and a VP, Vic Gondotra. While there were a few of the expected "where's the proof" people on Twitter, as Kelly said, the large majority of responses she got were supportive, from lots of men and women. In addition, in the google+ t…

> While there were a few of the expected "where's the proof" people on Twitter, as Kelly said, the large majority of responses she got were supportive, from lots of men and women.

You raise a good point, but the problem is that not all supportiveness is equal.

There are a lot of people who share their opinions when an incident like this goes public, and depending on what communities you happen to draw the attention of, the response may well be more positive than negative. But there's a much smaller number of people (like bosses and future bosses, for instance) whose response will have a real, tangible effect on your career and future.

If those few people happen to be an unlucky random sample -- like, say, the HN commenter who said about Kelly Ellis that "the only thing I have learnt from this and the Adria Richards nonsense is when I am hiring I will screen for radical feminism" -- then the supportive comments from complete strangers don't mean much. And so it's understandable why someone would be reluctant to take that risk.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#149

Post by stepjump » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:02 AM UTC

swombat wrote: post #60

chroma wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The story in this article is as foreign to me as it is to you. I've worked at various software companies in SV for almost a decade now, and I've also never seen or heard of anything like this. Obviously, it happens, but it's rare enough that one can go their entire career without encountering it. Similarly, 45 people were murdered in SF last year, but I never stumbled across a dead body in my commute. In fact, the mo…

I have spoken at a professional conference and had about two dozen drunk fully grown men shout-chant at me to take my shirt off, becoming louder and growing more numerous the longer nobody responded to them. Security did nothing, and I was on my own to de-escalate the situation. Yeah, I mean, fucking hell. Seriously? I don't really understand how this can happen. It's just not thinkable in any professional context I…

I attended a relatively large tech conference in the U.S. Midwest where the atmosphere was more informal, alcohol was provided to attendees, and every attendee received complimentary passes to the hotel water park. The same conference changed its open bar policy to "one free drink per day per person" after an incident (which was either indecent exposure or sex in public or sexual assault depending on who was telling me the story, still don't know the real version) some years before I attended. I can see an open bar combined with a con atmosphere that goes out of its way to be informal ending up with some vocal, drunk assholes.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#150

Post by randyrand » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 2:03 AM UTC

empressplay wrote: post #130

randyrand wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"they've been surprised that anyone was offended" What did they say?

Yes, and their apologists often sound like you. True fact: "We always say shit like this, it doesn't mean anything" is not justification for acting like an ass.

I agree. That is not justification at all. I just think if you call people misogynist/homophobic/etc you shouldn't be hesitant to provide a concrete example of them acting that way.