Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower • Hacker News Board

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#101

Post by unepipe » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:39 AM UTC

woofyman wrote: post #74

rayiner wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

That's not rape. Rape is sexual intercourse without consent. Edited to clarify. Oral sex without consent is also rape. Threatening to fire someone unless they give them a BJ is sexual harassment.

Forced oral sex is also by definition rape. And is it consent, despite performing a sexual act, if a "no" causes you severe harm (in this case financial/career harm) and you truly didn't want to do that sexual act, but you acted out of fear and coercion?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#102

Post by dethstar » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:39 AM UTC

woofyman wrote: post #74

rayiner wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

That's not rape. Rape is sexual intercourse without consent. Edited to clarify. Oral sex without consent is also rape. Threatening to fire someone unless they give them a BJ is sexual harassment.

Consent when being coerced?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#103

Post by e40 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:40 AM UTC

swatow wrote: post #77

rayiner wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

Can you clarify what sort of coercion was involved? My understanding is that rape does involve physical violence, or at least physical coercion. In particular, "give me a blowjob or you are fired" is not rape, but "give me a blowjob or I'm not unlocking the door" is.

My understanding is that rape does involve physical violence, or at least physical coercion.

You're missing the threat of violence.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#104

Post by unepipe » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:40 AM UTC

golemotron wrote: post #86

woofyman wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not rape. Rape is sexual intercourse without consent. Edited to clarify. Oral sex without consent is also rape. Threatening to fire someone unless they give them a BJ is sexual harassment.

The word 'rape' is being re-defined now. The definition is being expanded far beyond what we called rape 20 years ago. Feminists are trying to do this in order to call attention to sexual harassment, but it is backfiring. They will dilute the term to the point where violent rape is no longer seen as the uniformly more serious offense that it is.

Forced oral sex is considered rape. This isn't feminist redefinition. You think if a gun is to your head and you give a blowjob that is sexual harassment? Think about someone who has a family and needs their income, and what this kind of situation puts them in.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#105

Post by peteretep » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:40 AM UTC

golemotron wrote: post #79

rayiner wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

I'm sure that as a heterosexual man, regardless of my financial circumstances, no one could coerce me into giving blowjobs under the threat of losing my job. I'd quit and take my chances. What am I missing here?

    > heterosexual man, regardless of my financial
    > circumstances, no one could coerce me into giving
    > blowjobs under the threat of losing my job

What about the slightly older and attractive female manager asking you to give her a shoulder rub that gets progressively more sexual each time she asks you to do, and that you get progressively more uncomfortable doing? Would you quit the first time she told you she had a sore shoulder, and asked you to stick your elbow in it? What about the third time when she takes her shirt off, and another coworker has been joking to you about how she likes you, and how you're a lucky guy?

Yes as a hetro guy you're going to have trouble imagining a situation where you end up with a penis in your mouth, but I suspect with a bit of imagination you can think of how you might end up in a very uncomfortable situation with a female boss that you don't feel you can get out of.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#106

Post by bluehat » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:40 AM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #72

[deleted]

Would that make it OK here? If it happened any less anywhere else? Would that make you want to fight against a thing that was wrong any less?

I feel like we all joined this community because we thought we could change stuff.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#107

Post by tinco » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:41 AM UTC

golemotron wrote: post #79

rayiner wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

I'm sure that as a heterosexual man, regardless of my financial circumstances, no one could coerce me into giving blowjobs under the threat of losing my job. I'd quit and take my chances. What am I missing here?

Reduce the barrier. Make your boss an attractive woman, who over the course of months goes from asking you to rub her shoulders to release stress to holding her breasts. And now consider that perhaps you are in a committed relationship with someone else.

At some point you crossed the line of acceptable intimacy (probably rather early) and it escalated from there as you were uncertain how to deal with the relationships.

Is it cold hard rape? No. Is it an unacceptable and illegal exploitation of power and psychological torment by the boss? Yes.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#108

Post by jusben1369 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:43 AM UTC

woofyman wrote: post #74

rayiner wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

That's not rape. Rape is sexual intercourse without consent. Edited to clarify. Oral sex without consent is also rape. Threatening to fire someone unless they give them a BJ is sexual harassment.

Rape is not just sexual intercourse. But all of these comments do raise an important point. We have so many variations on killing someone (murder, manslaughter) and assaulting someone. Rape is calling out for 3 or 4 definitions so that a) Men don't hear the word and compare it to a violent movie scene in an alley and if it doesn't hold up to comparison dismiss it and b) Police and prosecutors would be more likely to prosecute knowing they could win. In the US we created "vehicular manslaughter" because no jury would convict a drunk driver of "murder" given that out of a jury of 12 more than half have driven a car drunk one time so murder was too much.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#109

Post by donw » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:43 AM UTC

Thriptic wrote: post #87

brandonmenc wrote: post #78

> he frequently came out with scary-harsh messages that had little relation to reality, like being worried about who he asked to help carry heavy equipment That's "scary-harsh?" Fact: women are not as strong as men. It's not even a question. Go look at weightlifting records, if you don't believe that. Even elite, lifelong female powerlifters max out at weights that a man in the same weight class can throw up for reps…

> Even elite, lifelong female powerlifters max out at weights that a man in the same weight class can throw up for reps with just a moderate amount of training. That's not a true statement. A quick look at the IPF female world records shows an unequipped lifter putting up a 230 kg squat at 107 kg body weight. That would be considered almost an elite lift for a male of the same weight class, which requires far more th…

Massively offtopic, but powerlifting records (http://www.usapowerlifting.com/records/national-championship...) support that yes, elite female powerlifters top out at what would be considered a rep weight for a male lifter in the same weight class.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#110

Post by golemotron » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:44 AM UTC

tinco wrote: post #107

golemotron wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that as a heterosexual man, regardless of my financial circumstances, no one could coerce me into giving blowjobs under the threat of losing my job. I'd quit and take my chances. What am I missing here?

Reduce the barrier. Make your boss an attractive woman, who over the course of months goes from asking you to rub her shoulders to release stress to holding her breasts. And now consider that perhaps you are in a committed relationship with someone else. At some point you crossed the line of acceptable intimacy (probably rather early) and it escalated from there as you were uncertain how to deal with the relationship…

It simply is not rape. It's sexual harassment.

There is a concerted attempt now to characterize sexual harassment as rape. The person we are replying to did it in an off-hand manner and it is wrong - not just as a point of law but as a strategy for social change.