Coding Like a Girl • Hacker News Board

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#131

Post by aupajo » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 8:04 PM UTC

Mithaldu wrote: post #16

skj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially with the vocal comment, many people get annoyed with female voices when they're in a supposedly serious context. But the thing is that it's not actually some fundamentally annoying or distracting quality of the voice- it's that it's different from what they expect: a male voice. "This American Life" had a great segment about this, targeting "vocal fry" in particular: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-a…

High Rising Terminal is a thing and it has nothing to do with gender: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_rising_terminal Edit: Heck, in the segment you link they even comment on the fact that the guy does it too, and it was one of the first things i noticed. Those are just valley people, that's it.

It's worth reading this piece for context. Reactions to uptalk can belie underlying prejudices. http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2014/12/16/uptalk_...

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#132

Post by Roboprog » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 8:06 PM UTC

I think some of this has to do with age, as well.

As the middle age father of two twenty-ish daughters, one of which is VERY bright, and somebody with decades of work experience, I have met a number of very bright women, and I don't think I would discriminate against female coworkers.

However, if your peer group is twenty-something men, good luck getting them not to think of you as a twenty-something woman as a potential mate, at least from time to time, rather than "just another coworker". They might want to complement your dress or appearance due to ulterior motives. Not that they shouldn't be polite.

Please be sure not to mistake desperation for discrimination :-)

Disclaimer: some people are just assholes, sorry.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#133

Post by rezistik » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 8:08 PM UTC

stephenboyd wrote: post #116

logic404 wrote: post #100

A couple years ago she attended a technical conference and on the first day, she wore a dress...wore a nerdy t-shirt and jeans instead, and she had a better experience that day. People assumed she was technical and didn’t dilute their explanations to her I'm not sure this really makes the case that its sexism at play. For example, if a guy wore a suit and tie to a conference, people might assume he's not a programmer…

The author is trying to correct the problem that people dressing in a feminine way are not seen as technical. If people who wear business suits have such a problem, they're welcome to do their own advocacy.

It's about identifying the problem though. Is it sexism, or is it general prejudice?

A dress is definitely more feminine, but it's also more professional. In the same vein, if you were a suit it would be more professional. My point is she was treated as less technical because people assumed she was. When she dressed in the "nerd uniform" people treated her like a technical member.

If that's the case then it isn't sexism, it's prejudice regarding professional appearance.

There is certainly sexism in the tech world but I don't think this is a great example personally.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#134

Post by stephenboyd » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 8:08 PM UTC

c22 wrote: post #127

stephenboyd wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If more programmers wear pretty dresses maybe that look will become stereotypical of programming, but it hasn't historically been the case" She makes the same claim, but instead of accepting that she has to conform to style norms set by the opposite gender, she's trying to encourage more programmers to wear dresses and such, which should be perfectly respectable for a programmer at a conference.

I think there are dresses that would not garner this response. Wearing lingerie would be another way to present oneself as feminine, but I think even the author would reject this as inappropriate attire for a tech conference.

Please tell us more about the dresses that would not garner this response and how they are different from what she wore.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#135

Post by stephenboyd » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 8:15 PM UTC

rezistik wrote: post #133

stephenboyd wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is trying to correct the problem that people dressing in a feminine way are not seen as technical. If people who wear business suits have such a problem, they're welcome to do their own advocacy.

It's about identifying the problem though. Is it sexism, or is it general prejudice? A dress is definitely more feminine, but it's also more professional. In the same vein, if you were a suit it would be more professional. My point is she was treated as less technical because people assumed she was. When she dressed in the "nerd uniform" people treated her like a technical member. If that's the case then it isn't sex…

Keep in mind that the "nerd uniform" was created by only one gender. And most dresses are not stuffy professional attire. Most of my female friends wear casual dresses in casual situations.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#136

Post by JDiculous » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 8:20 PM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #128

JDiculous wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that it's impossible to fix. If you're a short white guy, people will always initially assume that you're not a pro basketball player. Again, as long as you're not overly zealous about your assumptions and willing to accept when they're wrong, it's not discrimination or "systematic oppression". Feminists try to turn this into a gender war, but it's really not. It's the circumstance of any minority in any h…

Saying it is "impossible to fix" is a bad attitude - difficult may be accurate, but declaring impossibility is a display of laziness/lack of creativity or knowledge of history. It denigrates the efforts of those who believe it possible to change the course of history.

When I said it's impossible to fix, I was referring to the majority making assumptions about someone who doesn't fit their mold. Telling people to be politically correct about it isn't going to fix it.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#137

Post by gaius » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 8:27 PM UTC

andrewfong wrote: post #125

gaius wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another example, if a black person came to a tech conference dressed in a suit and tie, then the next day in jeans and a hoodie, and were treated differently, I don't think anyone would think it was a sign that the tech scene is racist.

That's actually an interesting hypo because many black men are explicitly discouraged from wearing a hoodie to avoid being perceived as a "thug".[1] For the sake of discussion let's assume the tech scene is better than that and treats a black coder in a hoodie the same as a white person. While not intentionally racist, the de facto requirement of a hoodie or similar apparel to be taken seriously as a programmer might…

Make it jeans and a t-shirt then.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#138

Post by JDiculous » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 8:28 PM UTC

rfrey wrote: post #101

JDiculous wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that it's impossible to fix. If you're a short white guy, people will always initially assume that you're not a pro basketball player. Again, as long as you're not overly zealous about your assumptions and willing to accept when they're wrong, it's not discrimination or "systematic oppression". Feminists try to turn this into a gender war, but it's really not. It's the circumstance of any minority in any h…

Being short is a natural impediment to playing professional basketball. Being female is not a natural impediment to programming. So, even if you're correct that gender assumptions are valid (and apparently OK) because of the prevailing gender makeup, it is not impossible to fix - you fix it by changing the prevailing gender makeup. (I don't agree with that assumption, but let's grant it for the sake of exploring the…

> you fix it by changing the prevailing gender makeup

Yes. This is the only way to stop men from making assumptions. That's what I said in my original post ("there's nothing that will ever prevent people from making assumptions until the tiny minority stops being such a minority"). To get more women in tech, more women have to pursue tech. Unlike what this article touts, telling men to assume feminine women are developers isn't going do much if anything until more feminine women become developers (which would be awesome!).

Women already get affirmative action and special groups/scholarships, yet they're still not choosing to pursue tech from an early age. I think this means two possible things: (1) girls naturally are less interested in tech, (2) parents, teachers, and the environment steer girls away from tech. Maybe (2) causes (1), or maybe it's biology.

I'd like to see more articles discussing (2) rather than seeing yet another article lamenting the fact that women commonly get mistaken for designers/recruiters at tech conferences. That's not the reason women aren't studying CS in high school (just like I'd imagine that's not the reason why men don't pursue nursing), the issue is much deeper than that.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#139

Post by gaius » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 8:30 PM UTC

Mithaldu wrote: post #83

foldr wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of proves the point. There isn't any single dialect of English spoken by "chavs", so it must be that you dislike the various dialects that those people speak because they're spoken by those people. Of course the claim is not that people's dislike will always be targeted at groups with a low socio-economic status. E.g. as a British person, I quite dislike "posh" dialects. And that is entirely my problem -- n…

There's a certain specific londonish dialect i'm thinking of, but don't know the name for, so i abbreviated it to chavs, but feel free to extrapolate my thoughts. My problem also isn't the people, my problem is that i cannot fucking make out the words they are trying to form, but i guess you can ignore that too despite me literally saying that in my previous post.

You might be thinking of "mockneys" rather than chavs.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#140

Post by BSousa » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 8:40 PM UTC

cezar_sl wrote: post #7

gaius wrote: post #6

The dress story vs jeans, would apply equally to a guy in a suit and tie vs a hoodie.

There was a story here a while ago, about a guy who got rejected at an interview because he went dressed in a suit and tie, and was deemed "not a good culture fit".

There is also someone either at YC or some other accelerator/vc that recently wrote in their blog that as soon as you go to an interview with a suit he will automatically pass as he doesn't believe you can be a techie. Having a hard time finding the post, but it was posted here on HN.