Coding Like a Girl • Hacker News Board

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#121

Post by stephenboyd » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:12 PM UTC

c22 wrote: post #107

logic404 wrote: post #100

A couple years ago she attended a technical conference and on the first day, she wore a dress...wore a nerdy t-shirt and jeans instead, and she had a better experience that day. People assumed she was technical and didn’t dilute their explanations to her I'm not sure this really makes the case that its sexism at play. For example, if a guy wore a suit and tie to a conference, people might assume he's not a programmer…

Yeah, I don't get it. She keeps saying she's "presenting" as feminine and then complaining that people are basing their assumptions on how she presents herself. If more programmers wear pretty dresses maybe that look will become stereotypical of programming, but it hasn't historically been the case. If I show up at a tech conference presenting as a wrestler I might be displaying all sorts of macho manly cues but I st…

"If more programmers wear pretty dresses maybe that look will become stereotypical of programming, but it hasn't historically been the case"

She makes the same claim, but instead of accepting that she has to conform to style norms set by the opposite gender, she's trying to encourage more programmers to wear dresses and such, which should be perfectly respectable for a programmer at a conference.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#122

Post by stephenboyd » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:24 PM UTC

danielmiessler wrote: post #106

I hear and feel the frustration, but it's misplaced. If a man shows up to a tech conference dressed like the guys from Jersey Shore, he's going to be looked down on by everyone there. He'll be assumed to be part of the delivery people doing setup for the booths. If he complains that he's a programmer and that he shouldn't be judged by his clothing, he will get mixed results. It's true that if he turns out to be a nic…

"But the one thing we cannot do is demand that the entire world see signals differently than they see them out on the street."

We can work on it instead of trying to justify such a narrow conception of what a competent programmer looks like. We can and do make progress on how people interpret the appearances of others.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#123

Post by wongarsu » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:31 PM UTC

alexmat wrote: post #110

wongarsu wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When 90+% of developers are men, of course men are going to assume you're not a developer if you're a female For one, that's a crime against statistics and formal logic itself. "90% of RAM is not fault tolerant, of course men are going to assume it's not RAM if it's fault tolerant" would be a ridiculous thing to say, because you just can't reason that way. The kind of reasoning you want to do works like this: 90% of…

>"90% of RAM is not fault tolerant, of course men are going to assume it's not RAM if it's fault tolerant" would be a ridiculous thing to say, because you just can't reason that way. If you had to make an assumption, and all you knew about an item was that it was fault tolerant, ruling out RAM is not a terrible strategy if 90% of all RAM is not fault tolerant. Likewise, if all you know about someone is they are a dev…

>Likewise, if all you know about someone is they are a developer, assuming they are male is not a terrible strategy since you are correct 90% of the time!

Yes, and I'm not questioning that. The problem is that that same statistic says nothing about the likelihood that a given female is a developer.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#124

Post by andrewaylett » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:32 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #51

pornel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the objection was that it was feedback about how it was presented, not about what has been presented. It may be valid feedback, but not necessarily the most relevant one. And I think she finds it problematic because women are more often openly judged by how they look rather than what they do, and this fits the pattern.

Doing presentations in school is as much about learning to present as it is the topic of presentation. For many topics and audiences, how a presentation is made can be as important, or more important, than what is being presented.

True. But if all the men get one kind of feedback and all the women the other, that's (a) sexist and (b) not actually maximally helpful to anyone.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#125

Post by andrewfong » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:32 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #114

c22 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't get it. She keeps saying she's "presenting" as feminine and then complaining that people are basing their assumptions on how she presents herself. If more programmers wear pretty dresses maybe that look will become stereotypical of programming, but it hasn't historically been the case. If I show up at a tech conference presenting as a wrestler I might be displaying all sorts of macho manly cues but I st…

Another example, if a black person came to a tech conference dressed in a suit and tie, then the next day in jeans and a hoodie, and were treated differently, I don't think anyone would think it was a sign that the tech scene is racist.

That's actually an interesting hypo because many black men are explicitly discouraged from wearing a hoodie to avoid being perceived as a "thug".[1] For the sake of discussion let's assume the tech scene is better than that and treats a black coder in a hoodie the same as a white person. While not intentionally racist, the de facto requirement of a hoodie or similar apparel to be taken seriously as a programmer might nevertheless have a greater adverse impact on black men than white.

[1] http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/22/10814211-trayvon-...

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#126

Post by daxelrod » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:34 PM UTC

rjbwork wrote: post #32

cezar_sl wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a story here a while ago, about a guy who got rejected at an interview because he went dressed in a suit and tie, and was deemed "not a good culture fit".

We actually had to let go the only person to have come to our interview in a suit and tie that we actually hired...there is not a good track record.

Where is your company, and what industry is it in?

I was taught (and coached) that no matter what kind of job you're interviewing for, you should show up in a suit and tie. Not because you ever expect to wear that while working, but because it is considered a show of respect to the interviewers.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#127

Post by c22 » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:34 PM UTC

stephenboyd wrote: post #121

c22 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't get it. She keeps saying she's "presenting" as feminine and then complaining that people are basing their assumptions on how she presents herself. If more programmers wear pretty dresses maybe that look will become stereotypical of programming, but it hasn't historically been the case. If I show up at a tech conference presenting as a wrestler I might be displaying all sorts of macho manly cues but I st…

"If more programmers wear pretty dresses maybe that look will become stereotypical of programming, but it hasn't historically been the case" She makes the same claim, but instead of accepting that she has to conform to style norms set by the opposite gender, she's trying to encourage more programmers to wear dresses and such, which should be perfectly respectable for a programmer at a conference.

I think there are dresses that would not garner this response. Wearing lingerie would be another way to present oneself as feminine, but I think even the author would reject this as inappropriate attire for a tech conference.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#128

Post by Bahamut » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:41 PM UTC

JDiculous wrote: post #74

zeendo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget the connotation 'horrific'. Are you asking why we should work to stop this behavior? Pardon me for assuming but here are my thoughts - Because it's literally systematically oppressive. This behavior makes an entire gender less likely to participate in our field. That's bad for the gender and it's bad for the field. Isn't that enough reason to work to fix it? So what if there are non-malicious explanations for…

I'm saying that it's impossible to fix. If you're a short white guy, people will always initially assume that you're not a pro basketball player. Again, as long as you're not overly zealous about your assumptions and willing to accept when they're wrong, it's not discrimination or "systematic oppression". Feminists try to turn this into a gender war, but it's really not. It's the circumstance of any minority in any h…

Saying it is "impossible to fix" is a bad attitude - difficult may be accurate, but declaring impossibility is a display of laziness/lack of creativity or knowledge of history. It denigrates the efforts of those who believe it possible to change the course of history.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#129

Post by Roboprog » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:52 PM UTC

nightski wrote: post #70

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. If you were to make a stereotypically "masculine" presentation, you wouldn't get negative comments on it.

This is so not true. Suits are heavily discriminated against in our industry. If you wear a suit to a conference you probably won't get much attention. EDIT: I must go to the wrong programming conferences, never see suits. Wish the down voters would just share their experiences!

Depends. Am I at an H/P conference, or Atlassian? Different crowds.

Aside: Atlassian is more interesting. H/P has better food.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#130

Post by Roboprog » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:56 PM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #60

Assume people are as or more qualified than you. I think this is a great rule to apply to your dealings with anyone of whatever appearance or gender - often our assumptions about people are wildly inaccurate (and we make hundreds before they've opened their mouth, and lots more after the first sentence). If they're not more qualified, they'll make it clear, and if they are more qualified/intelligent, maybe you'll lea…

This one is hard to remember. Thanks for the reminder.

I started a new job a few months ago. It took a while to get started on our new big project, but once we did, it was nice to see everybody on the team fall into a complementary niche. "Not same" != "not smart".