Coding Like a Girl • Hacker News Board

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#51

Post by falcolas » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 5:03 PM UTC

pornel wrote: post #28

thomasmarcelis wrote: post #5

One thing I don't agree with, how is the following feedback gender-specific?: “Why are your slides so pink? It’s very distracting.” “Stop pushing your hair behind your ear when you present. It’s very distracting.” “Your voice goes up after every sentence you say.” I feel like this is all valid feedback. Back in university we would also get feedback on our behaviour during our presentations or the look of our slides.

I think the objection was that it was feedback about how it was presented, not about what has been presented. It may be valid feedback, but not necessarily the most relevant one. And I think she finds it problematic because women are more often openly judged by how they look rather than what they do, and this fits the pattern.

Doing presentations in school is as much about learning to present as it is the topic of presentation. For many topics and audiences, how a presentation is made can be as important, or more important, than what is being presented.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#52

Post by JDiculous » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 5:03 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #24

spiffyman wrote: post #19

I posted this on FB last night and had quite a discussion ensue. I really like what the author has to say about assumptions. As a user group and conference organizer, time and time again I have seen men approach feminine people in the crowd with these just terribly naïve prejudices. "Oh, you must be a junior dev." Or "Who are you here with?" We men should absolutely try to set these poor assumptions aside -- if not f…

Reminds me of how when a female singer produces her own music and has limited assistance from a man, reviewers attribute the entire thing to the man: http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/01/21/bjork_pitchfo... It's not even some malicious, deliberate assumption. People have been raised to expect that it is men who do the "real work", and pass over women without thinking about it.

Can someone explain to me why this is so horrific? When 95+% of music producers are male, of course men are going to assume that you're not a producer if you're female. When 90+% of developers are men, of course men are going to assume you're not a developer if you're a female. If I saw an extremely tall, handsome, well-dressed, and sociable man at a tech conference, I wouldn't take him to be a developer either. If you're a short white guy at an NBA event, people are going to assume you're not a pro basketball player. I'd imagine that the same thing holds true for men in female-dominated fields.

Whenever there's a tiny minority, people will make assumptions. As long as you're not overly zealous about your assumptions and willing to admit that you're wrong when told so, I don't see the problem. Realistically, there's nothing that will ever prevent people from making assumptions until the tiny minority stops being such a minority.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#53

Post by spiffyman » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 5:04 PM UTC

rjbwork wrote: post #40

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, are you saying the dress is too formal, or not formal enough ?

Too formal. It's pretty well known that dev/nerd culture is very pro-casual and anti-formal. The reason for this, in my opinion, is because we are very much a "function over form" culture. People who might be trying to compensate for lackluster ability by impressing with their overly nice dress are usually initially viewed with mistrust.

You're making the mistake of thinking that dresses are formal attire. I'm not a woman, but I don't think that's a valid assumption.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#54

Post by pavanky » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

ncallaway wrote: post #11

mrits wrote: post #2

If you worked where I do (on Earth) you will be judged for your gender,age,race,education,social standing, where you grew up, hygiene, personality, religion, etc...

I absolutely don't understand this argument. Person A says "X is happens and is bad". Person B responds "X happens, along with Y, Z, and W." What is the objective of the argument presented by person B? It doesn't refute or disagree with Person A in any way. Is the point to minimize or trivialize X because Y, Z, and W also happen? Does the presence of Y, Z, and W mean we shouldn't make progress on X?

If X, Y, Z and W are the symptoms of the same underlying issue, then we should be treating the underlying issue not the symptoms.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#55

Post by spiffyman » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 5:07 PM UTC

JDiculous wrote: post #52

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of how when a female singer produces her own music and has limited assistance from a man, reviewers attribute the entire thing to the man: http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/01/21/bjork_pitchfo... It's not even some malicious, deliberate assumption. People have been raised to expect that it is men who do the "real work", and pass over women without thinking about it.

Can someone explain to me why this is so horrific? When 95+% of music producers are male, of course men are going to assume that you're not a producer if you're female. When 90+% of developers are men, of course men are going to assume you're not a developer if you're a female. If I saw an extremely tall, handsome, well-dressed, and sociable man at a tech conference, I wouldn't take him to be a developer either. If y…

I don't think this is about whether it's natural to have assumptions. It's that the "tiny minority" (although I think your numbers are wrong) are consistently saying that those assumptions are offensive, exclusionary, off-putting, etc. So, natural or not, it behooves us to try to set them aside.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#56

Post by comex » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 5:09 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #45

[deleted]

I downvoted you because I think this is a thoroughly unreasonable and unfair attitude, but I'm starting to regret it. I've heard similar ideas from a few male acquaintances, and if there are a significant number of people in tech culture who feel similarly, the topic is worth discussing regardless of its merit.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#57

Post by falcolas » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 5:10 PM UTC

jfc wrote: post #42

spiffyman wrote: post #19

I posted this on FB last night and had quite a discussion ensue. I really like what the author has to say about assumptions. As a user group and conference organizer, time and time again I have seen men approach feminine people in the crowd with these just terribly naïve prejudices. "Oh, you must be a junior dev." Or "Who are you here with?" We men should absolutely try to set these poor assumptions aside -- if not f…

That's really the core issue: too many people believe that they can evaluate a person's technical knowledge based on physical appearance, which ends up including gender, race/ethnicity, sometimes even religion (if the person is wearing religious attire). It's just easier to get to know people instead of assuming. Also: environments that are unpleasant/hostile/uncomfortable for "people outside the norm" make it diffic…

> It's just easier to get to know people instead of assuming.

I hate to be the one to say it, but no, it's not easier. It's much more accurate, but it's not easier.

Getting to know someone involves overcoming biases, stereotypes, first impressions, and a lot of time. The payout from expending this effort is a much richer experience, but it comes at the cost of having fewer experiences.

I personally don't have the time or energy evaluate every person I meet with such scrutiny, and so I take shortcuts and evaluate them based on my experience with people superficially similar to them.

I'm not ashamed of that, it's part of being a human with a finite amount of time to devote to interpersonal relationships.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#58

Post by skj » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 5:10 PM UTC

Mithaldu wrote: post #16

skj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially with the vocal comment, many people get annoyed with female voices when they're in a supposedly serious context. But the thing is that it's not actually some fundamentally annoying or distracting quality of the voice- it's that it's different from what they expect: a male voice. "This American Life" had a great segment about this, targeting "vocal fry" in particular: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-a…

High Rising Terminal is a thing and it has nothing to do with gender: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_rising_terminal Edit: Heck, in the segment you link they even comment on the fact that the guy does it too, and it was one of the first things i noticed. Those are just valley people, that's it.

It's not gender-based, but the complaints about it are gender-based.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#59

Post by zeendo » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 5:10 PM UTC

JDiculous wrote: post #52

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of how when a female singer produces her own music and has limited assistance from a man, reviewers attribute the entire thing to the man: http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/01/21/bjork_pitchfo... It's not even some malicious, deliberate assumption. People have been raised to expect that it is men who do the "real work", and pass over women without thinking about it.

Can someone explain to me why this is so horrific? When 95+% of music producers are male, of course men are going to assume that you're not a producer if you're female. When 90+% of developers are men, of course men are going to assume you're not a developer if you're a female. If I saw an extremely tall, handsome, well-dressed, and sociable man at a tech conference, I wouldn't take him to be a developer either. If y…

Forget the connotation 'horrific'.

Are you asking why we should work to stop this behavior?

Pardon me for assuming but here are my thoughts -

Because it's literally systematically oppressive. This behavior makes an entire gender less likely to participate in our field. That's bad for the gender and it's bad for the field.

Isn't that enough reason to work to fix it?

So what if there are non-malicious explanations for an individual to behave this way....that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop it.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#60

Post by grey-area » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 5:12 PM UTC

Assume people are as or more qualified than you.

I think this is a great rule to apply to your dealings with anyone of whatever appearance or gender - often our assumptions about people are wildly inaccurate (and we make hundreds before they've opened their mouth, and lots more after the first sentence). If they're not more qualified, they'll make it clear, and if they are more qualified/intelligent, maybe you'll learn something from them. You should always be prepared to learn from someone whoever they are, and never make assumptions about them based on gender, appearance, culture etc. it's not only rude, it's just ignorance. It is important to note though that just because this is a problem everyone faces in some small way on either side of interactions every day, it's one which women face to a radically different degree.

I recently had someone at work criticise a page as too girly to our team including women. The same thing has happened to women I know who are doctors, architects and lawyers - competence is questioned or undervalued simply because they're a woman. It's hard to know where to start in responding to comments like that, and it's still happening in 2015, so I find this #likeagirl campaign justified and timely. It's time for people to speak out whenever they see this sort of prejudice masked as concern or advice, and stop making the workplace such a hostile environment for women. I'd love to think that by the time my daughter grows up we'll be over this sort of thing.

It is really disturbing the number of dismissive and hostile comments we see on posts about women on HN. Most stories on this topic devolve into flamewars or at best are littered with negative responses saying this is a problem everyone faces or it's not really a problem at all. Good articles like this reporting personal experience widely shared deserve better. How can we change that?