Live data from Hacker News

Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

esquire.co.uk

481–490 of 528 posts

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#481
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on your contract. If it guarantees employment and you're not an at-will employee, the contract will state reasons for why your employment can be terminated. It's possible that the contract might include "being targeted by the Internet Lynch Mob" as one of the reasons, but I doubt it.

People actually use those (employment contracts) here?

I so far worked as an at-will employee, but some of the positions I'm interviewing for are explicitly 6 month or 12 month contracts.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "reprehensible" politics you're discussing are still very much mainstream. A very substantial section of the population, 45%+ at last count, not only does not view them as reprehensible, but holds them itself. Eich is obviously of a different opinion vis a vis the harm caused by Prop 8. The question is, if one political fasion can be successfully characterized as "exclusively harmful" by its opponents, is it wort…

When did having a bloc have anything to do with the morality of a thing? If 51% of people think that black people shound be hung from trees, is it now okay ? "But 45% of Americans agree"-- cui gives a shit? Maybe 45% of Americans are assholes . What is just and good doesn't change because you threaten me with the McCarthy Committee or a blacklist. I don't hold many political positions on whose hill I'm not comfortabl…

>What is just and good doesn't change because you threaten me with the McCarthy Committee or a blacklist. I don't hold many political positions on whose hill I'm not comfortable dying, so bring it.

I think most people agree that morality isn't defined by consensus. We're not talking about morality in the objective sense, to the extent that such a thing exists. We're talking morality as perceived by others and the very real consequences that can flow from remaining consistent in one's moral perspective, while the rest of the community's view shifts. When that view turns against you, is it really fair to say that you shouldn't be allowed to do your job anymore? You may be OK with economic martyrdom if it comes down to it, but it's unlikely you actually want that to disrupt your life.

You're acting as if there is an objective test that proves your perspective is moral by definition. No such thing exists. That's why people disagree on these issues and it's why it's important that we maintain decorum and civility while disagreeing -- good, moral people can have differing opinions. Very few people are truly evil.

It's extremely unlikely that Brendan Eich would argue gay people are "not human beings", or even that they are "lesser human beings". That is not the premise of Prop 8. The fact that you can't see it any other way just shows how effective gay rights advocates have been at radicalizing a substantial portion of the population.

Homosexuality is a behavior. Gay marriage is the question of whether the government should subsidize or sponsor that behavior in the same way it subsidizes and sponsors heterosexual behaviors. These aren't questions of identities, they're questions of practicalities. People can disagree on them and still be good people.

You understand that only a few short decades ago, your position would've been the one that got people fired, right? It's cool that you think it's objectively right, and it's your prerogative to believe that. But you should acknowledge that differing viewpoints on these matters should be tolerated as a valid form of free political discourse. Free speech means we tolerate the contributions of our fellow citizens, even if we strongly disagree. I would suggest that depriving fellow citizens of income they're currently receiving specifically because they disagree on a political issue, whether it's gay marriage or the humor in dongle jokes, is not respectful of the basic freedoms that allow a democratic society to function.

This conversation is great supporting evidence for the argument for anonymity when discussing any significant controversial issue. PG's essay "What You Can't Say" addresses this also; unless your life's goal is to rehabilitate the particular social taboos of your time (that is, unless martyrdom is your goal), it's probably best not to get directly associated with that rehabilitation effort.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#483
post #219
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that I can never directly relate to being a female. All I can do is think about things logically. If she truly had this kind of response to an innocuous joke, I think that says more about her own insecurities than about the behavior of Hank. Feeling danger in response to a bad joke in a crowded room is not a reasonable response to have. It's grossly over-proportionate. How far should we go to cater towar…

This reminds me of when I go out running at night. I avoid running near men (particularly groups of men) because of a fear that I'll come to harm: specifically rape. It's irrational, and unreasonable, but it's the reaction I have nonetheless. (This is common, FYI, many women feel like this.) I don't expect other people to cater towards my fear, but acknowledging that it's real and that it happens is important. Ridicu…

I avoid running near men

Here's a true story for your consideration, a little while ago, walking home through the park which is unlit, after working late, I came across a female jogger lying unconscious on the ground. I did some basic first aid, called an ambulance, and waited with her until help arrived.

If she'd seen me in the distance and veered off the track because MEN she would have collapsed in the bushes and died of hypothermia probably that night. Have faith in people and they will be there for you when you need them.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#484
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand they can't go around claiming to have a deep seating sensitivity to offenses -- the image she was trying to portray. That she was just shaking in fear of being murdered because of a dongle joke. She is misrepresenting her character and manipulates the public image of herself to stir controversy, drama, and in turns she actually hurting the cause she claims to champion. If anything that is the thing…

> On the other hand they can't go around claiming to have a deep seating sensitivity to offenses. Why not? I can be scared of ax-wielding murderers while still enjoying a haunted house where people in an ax-murderer costume jump out at me. You expect offensive stuff in a CAH game. You don't expect it being mumbled behind you during a keynote.

>You expect offensive stuff in a CAH game. You don't expect it being mumbled behind you during a keynote. //

She chose to be offended. There was nothing inherently offensive about the comment as it's reported. It was apparently a private comment to a friend.

If I'm eavesdropping on some friends talking amongst themselves then I'd expect to hear all sorts of crass lewdness TBH. If I then choose to be offended perhaps the lookout is on me, that I should stop eavesdropping other's conversations.

The situation at hand — to borrow your metaphor — is like someone coming out of a haunted house, seeing someone across the street dressed as an axe-murderer (but clearly in fancy-dress), then crossing the street to harangue them because one should know axe-murderers frighten them and that some how the happenstance of your co-locality gives them the right to control over your attire.

If you don't like the content of private conversations that you can overhear, as an adult, in a public setting, then your choices are to put up with it, move out of earshot, or ask the people to censor themselves.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#485
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like To her it's not 800+ people, it's 800+ men where you are one of the few women. That's not something I can say I've ever experienced. Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impos…

> Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine. The same Adria who herself made penis jokes on twitter a few days earlier and who was playing Cards Against Humanity at the same PyCon conference? What happened to her is shameful and can't be condoned in any way, shape or form, but she engaged in the same (o…

Cards Against Humanity details - http://s3.amazonaws.com/cah/CAH_MainGame.pdf (full download of game cards).

NSFW!?!

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is threatening about that joke?

That's exactly it. We find it so hard to understand how that joke is threatening. It's almost impossible to imagine. It just sounds like a dumb joke. But look at how Adria describes her feelings in the article: “Have you ever had an altercation at school and you could feel the hairs rise up on your back?” she asked me. “You felt fear?” I asked. “Danger,” she said. “Clearly my body was telling me, ‘You are unsafe.’” I…

>I believe she actually felt like this

Then think of how terrified she must have felt when she was laughing and joking with a beer and surrounded by men playing Cards Against Humanity, with all those sexual and racial jokes. Poor "black, jewish" girl! Maybe we should expose the names of all those men in the photo and get them fired too ? I mean, She felt fear!!!

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#487
post #464

FWIW I sympathise with Adria - she seems like the perfect geek (takes no bullcrap, sticks to her guns, overly logical analysis of social situations to the detriment of all); describes me some of the time, and the constant state of some of the people in the teams I have managed over the years; and yet I never once thought of firing any one of them, Shame PyCon and the respective weren't able to deal with this in a bet…

> overly logical analysis of social situations to the detriment of all

Where do you see that in any of this? It seems to me to be a classic example of what happens when you don't think things through.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#488
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article is the worst kind of inflammatory journalism. I would never attempt to deny that there is a systemic patriarchy in place, or that white privilege exists, but tying every perceived injustice in the world to these braoder issues undermines the real issues that affect millions of people on a daily basis. As has been pointed out here by many other commentors, the behaviour of Hank and his friend was clearly…

> I would never attempt to deny that there is a systemic patriarchy in place I would. There are a couple of counter-arguments. One, claiming that there is a "patriarchy" sounds a whole lot like a conspiracy theory. Replace "patriarchy" with "zionism" in typical statements to see what I mean. This makes me very wary of any hand-waving claims of "patriarchy". The second is this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15491…

I hear what you are saying and I agree that the term patriarchy is a very loaded one. However what I am referring to is, as other commenters have pointed out, a systemic patriarchy. I am by no means implying some sort of conscious system of oppression but rather a centuries-old systemic dominance of men over women that has undeniably resulted in women feeling that they exist in a position of relative social weakness to men. I share your suspicion when people mention systems of 'control' while implying some sort of conspiracy. My use of the term patriarchy is closer connected to Antonio Gramsci's theory of hegemony, within a gender framework http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemony. Granted this is changing but it is by no means over. I merely stated my position on women's rights and the patriarchy as a way to pre-empt any unfounded backlash to my comments along the lines that I somehow support the patriarchy. As you have pointed out the main point of my article was that her actions were justified to a point, and that the actions that went beyond that point were the catalyst for the unfortunate repercussions that ensued for both parties. Thank you though for highlighting this as it is an important distinction to be made.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And "Hitler was an atheist!" This has little to do with feminism and much to do with one person who could easily score a narcissistic personality disorder diagnosis. The inability to separate this individual with feminism is the fault of the interpreter. Regardless, I think that you are unfortunately correct that this event reinforced preexisting, incorrect notions of feminism in the aforementioned interpreter.

Judging from my personal viewpoints and experiences (aka the usual YMMV), from those few feminists I know, most fall +- into this category. Much less narcisstic/sociopatic, but same breed. What I mean by this - looking very hard for any case of man/woman disparity in our society, ignoring that some professions are just better for men (and some for women, and others are +-equal). What is interesting is their lack of o…

> ignoring that some professions are just better for men

I'm not ignoring your sexism.

> ...yet they are almost oblivious to horrible treatment of women that happens region-wide half around the globe...

Is homelessness in the United States also not a problem because of impoverishment in African countries? Is the conversation of the drought in California dismissible because of the lack of clean water in India? You're expressing dire cultural insensitivity.

Post reply on HN