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Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

esquire.co.uk

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Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#461

Post by rdtsc »

Torgo wrote: post #441
cyxxon wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience including people of many different backgrounds. Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks. That does really not fit well with playing CAH...

I was wrong about PyCon, but I stand by my position that these events aren't actually treated as purely "professional" even if there are minimum standards of behavior. People wouldn't go if they were. But she wasn't playing Cards Against Humanity _at_ PyCon. Arguably because she represented Sendgrid, she should have been more professional on her Twitter, though.

Oh but she was.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#462

Post by worklogin »

huu wrote: post #438
worklogin wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once she said she had no regret for him getting fired, and that it was ok because he was a white male, any sympathy that could have been had was gone. She's like the white man who shot the black kids in Florida because he was threatened by their loud music.

I don't think your analogy applies here. I'd liken the situation more to stealing a CD from a record store. The CD's are easily replaced, but you were caught and now you're serving life in prison. Even though we know that stealing is wrong, would you feel bad for the record store?

I'm saying she's borderline mentally ill, perceiving threats that don't exist from offense she takes from immature comments.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#463

Post by FireBeyond »

tie_ wrote: post #383
interpol_p wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She wasn't being excluded. She wasn't being made fun of. She wasn't being oppressed. Unfortunately that isn't how she felt. Her feelings should matter to us just as Hank's feelings matter. > the only significance of that joke is that it acknowledges the existence of human sexual organs. That's it. No one is arguing that the joke is not innocuous, or that the joke is somehow sinister. I've been in Hank's shoes, I've…

> We deny her feelings, and in doing so we exclude her and other women. Now that comment is sexist, because you deny men the right to have the same feelings. It's easy to pick nits, especially in those fields. I don't think that anybody denies Adria's right to feel offended, at least not really. Feelings are irrational, that's why we don't get to fully explain them logically (quite convenient). Actions, on the other…

Reminded of a quote that resonates with me, in general:

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what?"

[I saw hate in a graveyard -- Stephen Fry, The Guardian, 5 June 2005]”

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#464

Post by flarg »

FWIW I sympathise with Adria - she seems like the perfect geek (takes no bullcrap, sticks to her guns, overly logical analysis of social situations to the detriment of all); describes me some of the time, and the constant state of some of the people in the teams I have managed over the years; and yet I never once thought of firing any one of them,

Shame PyCon and the respective weren't able to deal with this in a better way.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#465

Post by FireBeyond »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #334
jrochkind1 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's odd her opinion in the interview didn't seem to match that public HN comment, which I remembered too (thanks for finding it). I'd guess the article author didn't notice/find the HN comment, or he would have asked her about it, I'm curious what she would say (she never meant it, she was just trying to save her own job? She changed her mind? She has complicated feelings?)

To be honest, I'm a little bit skeptical of the honesty of the interviewer. Even if she said the things in this article, it's possible many of those statements were taken out of context. Someone here linked to this blog post [1] from someone apparently close to Richards, where the writer is classified as being manipulative and duplicitous in order to obtain 'the first interview' with Adria Richards. [1] http://www.sh…

I'm not as sure as you. He also didn't probe a few fairly well known queries people had of Adria, like how her hypersensitivity meshed with making regular penis and sexual jokes on her Twitter, and others. He queries his subject, as a good interviewer should, but in the end lets her statements stand on their own and that she has a right to her opinions and thoughts.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#466

Post by Torgo »

FireBeyond wrote: post #459
Torgo wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wrong about PyCon, but I stand by my position that these events aren't actually treated as purely "professional" even if there are minimum standards of behavior. People wouldn't go if they were. But she wasn't playing Cards Against Humanity _at_ PyCon. Arguably because she represented Sendgrid, she should have been more professional on her Twitter, though.

"But she wasn't playing Cards Against Humanity _at_ PyCon." Uhh... scroll up: https://instagram.com/p/W_A1xlAacg/ Caption on that picture, by @adriarichards, "Playing, Cards Against Humanity, #pycon" (And that picture is a hallway at the venue).

Well, shit. But I guess that proves my point. These things aren't actually treated as professional events.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#467

Post by FireBeyond »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #379
pcthrowaway wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, I'm a little bit skeptical of the honesty of the interviewer. Even if she said the things in this article, it's possible many of those statements were taken out of context. Someone here linked to this blog post [1] from someone apparently close to Richards, where the writer is classified as being manipulative and duplicitous in order to obtain 'the first interview' with Adria Richards. [1] http://www.sh…

Hm, you/they think the interviewer intentionally made Richards look as bad as they could, or something? I don't really know. The article you link to is worth reading -- it's critiquing a different article by Ronson in the NYTimes Magazine, not the OP by the the same author in Esquire. Obviously he used the same research for both though, and the critique might apply to both. The NYTimes one indeed reduced Richards to…

"and it's even more fucked up that Richards got fired"

I'm not as sure. The article posted a somewhat misleading explanation, that it was capitulation to stop DDoS attacks and other harassment of SendGrid. But it wasn't mentioned that Adria used and name-dropped SendGrid and her "power" there to vocalize the issue, and that wasn't something SendGrid authorized or employed her to do.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#468

Post by yuhong »

byuu wrote: post #204
edw519 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way I believe exactly the opposite. People say horrible things hiding behind anonymity. Those of us who freely identify ourselves actually attempt (albeit sometimes feebly) to talk to others as if we were in person. If we just treated each other on-line like we did in person, most of this shit would never happen. - Proud self-identified member o…

It's not about what we should do in an ideal world. It's about the realities of the world we live in, where employers will fire you at the drop of a hat, regardless of whether you are in the right or wrong. Using your real name doesn't win you any points. I could easily lie and say my real name was John Thomas. It sounds real enough. I could lie in real life with a fake name, too. Conversely, I have 18+ years of hist…

Personally I think the real solution is to fix these problems if possible. Still, there are many things that can be and often are posted using real names even now, this incident is about a specific topic.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#469

Post by mcphage »

stfu wrote: post #93
probably_wrong wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. I think he did: there seems to be no discussion that he violated the conference's code of conduct. If we want to reduce the sexism in tech, I think reporting these instances is perfectly fine, and even commendable. However. She could have asked them politely to stop. If she didn't feel safe doing that, she could have talked in private to the conference's or…

Do you really think that conferences' code of conduct should regulate what two friends are saying to each other privately?

> what two friends are saying to each other privately

By "privately", you mean, "in a room with 800 other people", right?

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#470

Post by jazzyk »

interpol_p wrote: post #127
bobcostas55 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is threatening about that joke?

That's exactly it. We find it so hard to understand how that joke is threatening. It's almost impossible to imagine. It just sounds like a dumb joke. But look at how Adria describes her feelings in the article: “Have you ever had an altercation at school and you could feel the hairs rise up on your back?” she asked me. “You felt fear?” I asked. “Danger,” she said. “Clearly my body was telling me, ‘You are unsafe.’” I…

If Adria feels unsafe at a day-time conference attended by professionals, in her own country, she should seek professional help.
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