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Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

esquire.co.uk

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Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#401
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that here in the US only applied to a specific list of disallowed reasons (race/gender/etc). Which don't include "being targeted by the Internet Lynch Mob".

It depends on your contract. If it guarantees employment and you're not an at-will employee, the contract will state reasons for why your employment can be terminated. It's possible that the contract might include "being targeted by the Internet Lynch Mob" as one of the reasons, but I doubt it.

People actually use those (employment contracts) here?

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#402
post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

My naive wish would be for companies to hold employees accountable when they are acting officially or on the job. But if you're off the job and not acting officially that people could be their ugly or nice selves without repercussions at the job. I wish there could be this hard separation of private and public life, but it seems impossible.

I would like to think that if I ever become an employer I could allow the Adrias and trolls of the world keep on doing what they do in the off hours, so long as they don't implicate the company. And when people want to complain and boycott I could have the courage to tell them to fuck off because I have no input an an employees private life and I only care how well they do things at work.

I know this cannot work in practice, but I'd like it to be that way. People are complicated, they are not monolithic personalities, they are conflicted, I think we need to understand that. We also need to understand that people who are perfect are only so because their indiscretions have not be on public.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#403
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post makes me severely question your grasp of the legal system in the United States. Racism and sexism are not illegal , though they are bullshit and wrong. Discrimination and undue preference are illegal in housing and employment contexts. They are not illegal in social contexts, and is regularly wielded against women and minorities to their (and, by extension, society's) detriment. Sexualized jokes like this--…

> Your post makes me severely question your grasp of the legal system in the United States. Question away, I don't live in the US and I have no intention to. I was under the impression that this could, indeed, be handled by a court of law or the police; today I learned, I guess :) but even so, I don't think it takes away my point. Racism and sexism are very legal around here as well, because they are personal opinion…

> That this is not what happened in Hank's case. This was a private conversation that was overheard. Have you honestly never cracked a sexist joke with a friend in a bar? A racist joke? You sure you never laughed a bit too hard at that picture about Irish yoga? Alcoholism is no joke!

Sexist and racist jokes? No, I don't, and I don't associate with people who use them. Now, and this is important: I didn't call Hank's joke "sexist", I called it "sexualized", because I think intent does matter. I don't think Hank's intent was sexist. But Hank needs to understand that a joke like this with a sexual context, in the absence of mitigating factors, does contribute to that just-us-guys, implicitly-othering culture that doesn't need to outright say "no girls allowed" to make it feel that way. That culture is not only kind of deleterious in general, but just wholly inappropriate in professional a setting. It's a crap joke, and one that I can easily understand being hurtful and exclusionary. In a managerial position, I wouldn't fire Hank for it, but I'd probably have given him a ration of shit for poor judgment.

It's important for me to stress that this is not to say that you cannot joke about sex or race. But it's not funny when you punch downward. Louis CK is a wonderful example of this. His jokes reference women and minorities all the time--but the jokes aren't about them, they're about him and his reactions to them based on his own personal context. He's asking us to laugh at him, not to laugh at the person who is, by and large, probably getting a way worse deal in life than he is. Lots of his fans don't get that, and this is also why Dave Chappelle walked away from Chappelle's Show: it's hard to do that kind of comedy when your audience doesn't get the joke.

> We don't indulge many other symptoms of emotional immaturity. This shouldn't get special treatment.

When it's the result of four hundred years (and more, really, but let's just be geographic here) of concerted activity on the part of society to constrain and hurt the people we consider less privileged today, I think it's not unreasonable to expect understanding and respect on the part of the people who've profited from it. Even setting aside the personal context described in the article, there is a metric shit-ton of cultural context in both tech and in America as a whole that means that somebody like me is starting at third base when somebody else isn't even getting out of the batter's box and it's neither just nor fair for me to use that against them when they react accordingly.

I am a straight, white male. I have it really good in the United States. I recognize that others do not. It is not my obligation to cape for other people, but it is my obligation, and Hank's, to not be an asshole. And that's a really low bar to hurdle.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#404
post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

Her lack of empathy is absolutely staggering. And, "if I had kids, I wouldn't tell jokes"? Seriously?

Did you read to the end, about her childhood?

She quite obviously has mental issues.

The guy simply shouldn't have gotten fired over a such a childish remark. His former employer is the one who made the real mistake here and who should be at the center of any public shaming.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#405
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine. The same Adria who herself made penis jokes on twitter a few days earlier and who was playing Cards Against Humanity at the same PyCon conference? What happened to her is shameful and can't be condoned in any way, shape or form, but she engaged in the same (o…

Twitter isn't a professional setting like a conference session, and anyone joining in a game of CAH is deliberately opting-in to a situation where offensively funny combinations are the entire point of the game.

I know people disagree with me frequently on this, but most conferences aren't professional settings either. You register and you go, that's the criteria. And people do a lot of "unprofessional" things at and around them.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#406
post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…

As for getting a new job. Adria was in a public relations role. Any future employer would have to be comfortable with the way she handled herself. Especially since she is not apologetic for it. Hank made a crude joke that was overheard, pretty much the extent of his wrongdoings.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#407
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> claiming that there is a "patriarchy" sounds a whole lot like a conspiracy theory. Replace "patriarchy" with "zionism" in typical statements to see what I mean. That's a false analogy. Zionism and similar conspiracy theories are predicated upon the notion that there organizations and people consciously manipulating things behind the scenes. When most people discuss the patriarchy, they're not referring to conscious…

> When most people discuss the patriarchy, they're not referring to conscious, willful agents. They're talking about systemic sexism. In my experience, that's the minority view. I've had a number of people tell me out-right that they're "opposed to the patriarchy, which is a system where grey-haired white men rule the world". Great. Are they "opposed to zionism, which is a system where jews rule the world"? They labe…

I will agree with you that if that's the position they're taking then it's pretty far from reasonable.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#408
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read a little bit on intersectionality [1] and keep in mind that Judaism is a ethnoreligious group that has a history of being oppressed. My personal take on the matter is that Jews also benefit from quite a bit of privilege, at least in the U.S. but it's understandable why someone with a fusion of minority backgrounds would be aware of how these work against them. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

My point was that in the context of the conference, her religion didn't visibly distinguish her from the rest of the audience, so there's no reason to write " [...] I can't even imagine what it's like to have been at PyCon as a black Jewish woman " just like there wouldn't be a reason to say " [...] I can't even imagine what it's like to have been at PyCon as a black vegetarian woman " or " [...] I can't even imagine…

Being raised a black Jewish woman is different from being raised a black woman. That's the entire idea behind intersectionality. Therefore, her black Jewish identity and any oppression she may have suffered as a result is part and parcel in this discussion.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#409
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand they can't go around claiming to have a deep seating sensitivity to offenses -- the image she was trying to portray. That she was just shaking in fear of being murdered because of a dongle joke. She is misrepresenting her character and manipulates the public image of herself to stir controversy, drama, and in turns she actually hurting the cause she claims to champion. If anything that is the thing…

> On the other hand they can't go around claiming to have a deep seating sensitivity to offenses. Why not? I can be scared of ax-wielding murderers while still enjoying a haunted house where people in an ax-murderer costume jump out at me. You expect offensive stuff in a CAH game. You don't expect it being mumbled behind you during a keynote.

[deleted]

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#410
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But we are oblivious to it, we can't even imagine how it feels. Nobody can imagine how would a random nerd from a 800-people conference would feel over a joke. Shall we ban joking? Fine people that use "dirty" words? "Your tone of voice makes me feel deeply offended, thus I have all the right to sue you" ? Where does this road end? What makes me feel extremely annoyed is the whole political correctitude and feeling…

No, we shouldn't ban any of that. Why would that be your take-away from this? The problem is the lack of diversity in our field leads to these horrible, unfortunate situations where people feel threatened and jokes which are not intended to be harmful are felt to be much worse. It means that we shouldn't be dismissing Adria and feeling for Hank because that's what always happens and what will keep causing these situa…

> No, we shouldn't ban any of that. > Why would that be your take-away from this?

People have very different sense of humour. As long as people are expressing that sense of humour via jokes, there will be jokes that are not seen as funny by the others that (over)hear them. I think it's safe to say that there will always be sex-related jokes as well. Thus, unless we stop joking completely, I don't see a way how we could completely avoid bad sex-jokes in private conversations. And if there are such jokes, there's always the risk of the wrong person hearing them and feeling offended just because the joke is a) bad and b) about sex.

I fully agree that we are lacking diversity, and there are things that we could do better to make the tech field more open. Self-censoring our private talks is NOT one of those things.

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