Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life • Hacker News Board

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#361

Post by IneffablePigeon » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:50 PM UTC

interpol_p wrote: post #274

mercurial wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would consider shaming them to be "fight," in this instance. More like shooting someone in the back. > I also feel really bad that Adria felt so uncomfortable that she did something so rash. That is where we differ. I do not believe her explanations. Not when she tweets the same kind of joke herself. > The upsetting thing is that our lack of diversity makes these situations so unavoidable. This particular situati…

> That is where we differ. I do not believe her explanations. Not when she tweets the same kind of joke herself. I think that brings up a very good point. You can make these jokes when you feel safe. Hank felt safe at PyCon, it was easy for him to joke right there in earshot of many like-minded people. Adria felt safe tweeting such a joke from her own computer. Adria did not feel safe at PyCon. This should be a huge…

Thanks for so eloquently describing what I've been trying to articulate about these sorts of situations. People can react in ways that appear hypocritical, irrational or plain malicious when they're put in circumstances that make them feel unsafe, uncomfortable or unwelcome. This can happen to any of us.

Those actions shouldn't be praised, but they also shouldn't be judged outside of their context. It's really hard for people like us in a position of relative privilege* to empathise because we're put in these situations so much less often, if ever.

It's so important for us to recognise our internal biases and confront them. Until I read these comments I didn't realise just how much better I'd empathised with Hank just because he's way more similar to me than Adria is.

* I hate to use the p-word because of its stigma but I really can't think of a better word

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#362

Post by fuligo » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:51 PM UTC

Jem wrote: post #219

byuu wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that I can never directly relate to being a female. All I can do is think about things logically. If she truly had this kind of response to an innocuous joke, I think that says more about her own insecurities than about the behavior of Hank. Feeling danger in response to a bad joke in a crowded room is not a reasonable response to have. It's grossly over-proportionate. How far should we go to cater towar…

This reminds me of when I go out running at night. I avoid running near men (particularly groups of men) because of a fear that I'll come to harm: specifically rape. It's irrational, and unreasonable, but it's the reaction I have nonetheless. (This is common, FYI, many women feel like this.) I don't expect other people to cater towards my fear, but acknowledging that it's real and that it happens is important. Ridicu…

> I avoid running near men (particularly groups of men) because of a fear that I'll come to harm

It's not irrational. I'm a man and I avoid groups of people at night, too. It's an absolutely reasonable precaution. I avoid other men because I don't want to put my life in danger unnecessarily, and I avoid women mostly because I don't want them to be alarmed by my presence.

These are what I would call rational fears, because they're about minimizing risk. It's also very clear that, say, if I required sudden medical assistance, I would probably trust any stranger I come across in the city at night to do the right thing 99.9% of the time. These are the mechanics of false negatives vs. false positives.

> I don't expect other people to cater towards my fear

Exactly. This is an important point because being afraid of something another person might do doesn't necessarily mean it's an accurate reflection of that person's intent.

And this is the fundamental breaking point where I think reasonable people start to feel a disconnect in the flow of the dongle story, because Richards is asserting both now and then that her life was in danger, and while it's easy to at least consider this feeling was real, the main question becomes did those guys do anything to cause that fear?

Because if they did not, it's unreasonable to blame them for causing this fear. I don't think a lot of people would say this fear itself is unjustified, but using it to attack someone who apparently did nothing to cause it is, and this whole disaster is a missed opportunity to talk about the factors that cause it.

This is not to detract from the stupidity of genital jokes in general, which amazingly both parties appear to be fond of.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#363

Post by pvaldes » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:52 PM UTC

Dewie wrote: post #140

> “Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?” Men are afraid that a woman will change/ruin their whole lives with just their words. Well, at least that is how "Hank" feels now.

And of course some men are also afraid to be killed or physically hurted by some women. Because, well... this happen, also.

I personally remember for example the case of a woman stabbing the belly of her partner (a men) with scissors. A very small and deep cut. You don't really need to be much strong to be able to kill another human.

In a country when everybody can carry a firearm with them legally, why women should be specially concerned by assaulting men, or more afraid to be killed by men than to be killed by another women?. In a lot of cases when a men kills someone the victim is another men.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#364

Post by rdtsc » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:52 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #281

adl wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine. The same Adria who herself made penis jokes on twitter a few days earlier and who was playing Cards Against Humanity at the same PyCon conference? What happened to her is shameful and can't be condoned in any way, shape or form, but she engaged in the same (o…

Twitter isn't a professional setting like a conference session, and anyone joining in a game of CAH is deliberately opting-in to a situation where offensively funny combinations are the entire point of the game.

On the other hand they can't go around claiming to have a deep seating sensitivity to offenses -- the image she was trying to portray. That she was just shaking in fear of being murdered because of a dongle joke.

She is misrepresenting her character and manipulates the public image of herself to stir controversy, drama, and in turns she actually hurting the cause she claims to champion. If anything that is the thing I don't like about what she did the most.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#365

Post by adwn » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:53 PM UTC

pcthrowaway wrote: post #278

adwn wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as a black Jewish woman Feeling out of place as a black woman I can understand, but how does her religion segregate her from the rest of the audience? Is this difference visible from outside?

Read a little bit on intersectionality [1] and keep in mind that Judaism is a ethnoreligious group that has a history of being oppressed. My personal take on the matter is that Jews also benefit from quite a bit of privilege, at least in the U.S. but it's understandable why someone with a fusion of minority backgrounds would be aware of how these work against them. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

My point was that in the context of the conference, her religion didn't visibly distinguish her from the rest of the audience, so there's no reason to write

"[...] I can't even imagine what it's like to have been at PyCon as a black Jewish woman"

just like there wouldn't be a reason to say

"[...] I can't even imagine what it's like to have been at PyCon as a black vegetarian woman"

or

"[...] I can't even imagine what it's like to have been at PyCon as a black stamp-collecting woman"

Note: I'm aware that the "black Jewish woman" argument was her own statement.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#366

Post by byuu » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:54 PM UTC

joshstrange wrote: post #271

near wrote: post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

> why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any wa While I agree with most of your post I don't agree with this statement. In my opinion hiding behind a username not tied to your real identity is nothing more than a stopgap, eventually someone will link "byuu" with who you really are or more likely you will make a slip up and expose yourself. DPR did everything he could to conceal his ident…

> DPR did everything he could to conceal his identity while running SR and he still screwed up.

DPR screwed up by running the largest drug trafficking system in the world. I make software to play old video games. While I'd love to flatter myself into thinking I were that important, I doubt I'm going to get the force of the entire US government trying to link my identity over my perfectly legal online actions.

But yes, anyone can eventually screw up. The nice part is that my real name is also really common. I can just make a new pseudonym if I have to. Changing your real name, still doable, but not quite as easy.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#367

Post by fsniper » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:54 PM UTC

seunosewa wrote: post #243

fsniper wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, her own words are showing signs of insecurity in her side which leads to near destruction of two peoples lives. (her own included). Also, both companies' responses to these events are overreactions.

I don't think Adria's company really over-reacted; she achieved the opposite of what her job of 'developer evangelist' was all about.

Well, yes you are right about that. I did not know/missed her position at the company. If you are an evangelist you are a frontend of your company, an institution's face where ever publicly speaking.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#368

Post by throwawayaway » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:55 PM UTC

juliangregorian wrote: post #319

mantas wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about other EU countries, but mine grants a small amount of free lawyer hours to every resident. Those free lawyers are not AAA-grade for sure, but they take care of the formalities. Some people (low income, unions etc) are eligible for more hours and/or better free lawyers. So in case of a simple case, it might end up being free.

Why do people consistently say "my country" when it's just as easy to say "Denmark" or "Croatia" or what have you.

You'd be surprised how small the tech industry is once you get down to national level in Europe.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#369

Post by bjornsing » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:55 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #338

Personally, I condemn anyone who is a vocal activist in the "gender debate" in tech who does not speak up on topics such as this. If you are female and want to genuinely be treated as an equal in tech, you don't freak out over minor jokes, and when "one of your own" does, I believe you are obligated to voice your disagreement with the behavior, assuming you even think it is wrong, which might be an incorrect assumpti…

Fear and avoidance of half of humanity. I've never before heard that described as "the wisest stance". :D I'll have to think about it... ;)

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#370

Post by tr352 » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:56 PM UTC

She failed to anticipate the huge backlash of her actions. Ironically, the goal of her actions was to make sure that his actions would lead to a huge unforeseeable backlash for him.