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Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

esquire.co.uk

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Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#321

Post by mreiland »

interpol_p wrote: post #295
ernave wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being excluded in a field She wasn't being excluded. She wasn't being made fun of. She wasn't being oppressed. If the joke was, "lol that dongle reminds me of penis!" then the only significance of that joke is that it acknowledges the existence of human sexual organs. That's it. That's all it does by itself. All that about being offended and excluded and threatened, that is all baggage that she brought with her int…

> She wasn't being excluded. She wasn't being made fun of. She wasn't being oppressed. Unfortunately that isn't how she felt. Her feelings should matter to us just as Hank's feelings matter. > the only significance of that joke is that it acknowledges the existence of human sexual organs. That's it. No one is arguing that the joke is not innocuous, or that the joke is somehow sinister. I've been in Hank's shoes, I've…

> Unfortunately that isn't how she felt. Her feelings should matter to us just as Hank's feelings matter.

It was unreasonable for her to feel that way and even the author of the article acknowledged that.

She can feel however she wants, but she is responsible for herself, no one else is. It is not Hanks' responsibility to make sure she isn't offended by a simple joke. It may have been inappropriate, but that's not the same thing.

There was no fairness in what she did.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#323

Post by byuu »

skywhopper wrote: post #254
byuu wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> jokes that make me feel threatened I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like, "Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?" She feared for her life over tasteless toilet humor in a crowded conference? Bullshit. Her Victorian sensibilit…

> You talk to a woman on an elevator... and > everyone assumes you're a sexual predator > because penis. A woman's fear of unwanted sexual advances, assault, or rape from an unknown male when she's in a vulnerable position is entirely reasonable. Many women receive unwelcome sexual advances on a regular basis. Most men have basically no point of personal reference for this fear, but we should try to be aware of how t…

What's the percentage of validated rape allegations? Certainly it's non-zero. Day-after regrets, explaining pregnancy or seeking abortion approval from parents, etc. And what is the definition of rape? Groping on a subway, forced intercourse, or somewhere in between? 18% just sounds insanely high to me. That sounds like more like an epidemic.

What does this ratio work out to in terms of chances any given one man is a rapist? If we ranked this as one person per allegation, that would be claiming that nearly one in five men are rapists, and that's patently absurd. If we had ~28 million male rapists in this country, our prisons would be absolutely overrun. Even if you claimed each rapist had ~10 victims, that's still an absurd number of male rapists.

At any rate, it's still bullshit that I am treated like a sexual predator. As an asexual, I'm the last person on the planet you need to worry about. It's disgusting when people single out groups based on race, on female gender, on religion, on sexual orientation, etc. It should be just as disgusting to do it towards men with regards to sexual assault.

Even with the absolutely ridiculous ~1:5 scenario, this woman was in a room with 800+ other men. There was zero chance she was in harm's way here.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#324

Post by BSousa »

TuringTest wrote: post #268
BSousa wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, Hank got more than he deserved (edit: being fired not the harassement), but not Adria. She posted the tweet WITH the photo. She started this. She (if I remember correctly) was some PR/evangelist in the company. What she did was exactly the opposite. I could understand if she tweeted about 'two men' making those jokes/whatnot and complain about it, BUT without a picture. With it, I honestly believe she got…

> I'm sorry, Hank got more than he deserved, but not Adria. From the article: > Someone sent Adria a photograph of a beheaded woman with tape over her mouth. Adria’s face was superimposed onto the bodies of porn actors. Websites were created to teach people how to make the superimposing look seamless — by matching skin-tones. On Facebook someone wrote, “I hope I can find Adria, kidnap her, put a torture bag over her…

Sorry, I meant in relation to being fired, not the harassment. My apologies for not making that more specific (I've edited the post)

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#325

Post by mkr-hn »

bluehex wrote: post #184
tomp wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Not too bad, he's a white male. I'm a black Jewish female." This makes her racist and sexist at the same time.

Technically she is not, according to [1] /s [1] https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/6039856858

Power imbalances and systemic issues are helpful for discussing society-level problems. It's useful to understand the broader society a jerk grew up in and see how certain societal norms might be involved.

I'd still be a jerk if I insulted a straight guy for being straight, and I wouldn't use "it's not bigoted because of a power imbalance" as a shield when someone calls me out on it. The power imbalance doesn't excuse it, and no amount of mincing words will make my words/actions look better even if I might be right if we keep it to a society-level discussion without considering individuals.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#326

Post by BSousa »

sspiff wrote: post #297
BSousa wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, Hank got more than he deserved (edit: being fired not the harassement), but not Adria. She posted the tweet WITH the photo. She started this. She (if I remember correctly) was some PR/evangelist in the company. What she did was exactly the opposite. I could understand if she tweeted about 'two men' making those jokes/whatnot and complain about it, BUT without a picture. With it, I honestly believe she got…

I don't see how she got what she deserved. What she did was wrong, but nothing to deserve graphic death and rape threats.

You are right, and I edited the post to specifically point to the firing part only)

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#327

Post by TeMPOraL »

chongli wrote: post #313
TeMPOraL wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his inability to realise how vulnerable she felt simply attending a conference because she was in the minority Aren't we granting too much power to minorities? Let me tell you a story that happened to me. I once went to a Java developers meetup. I'm a Lisper, probably the only one that was attending, so I was a clear minority (that was 3 years ago, back before everyone jumped onto functional programming bandwagon a…

Aren't we granting too much power to minorities? Why should we be the ones who have the ability to grant power?

We're granting the power by our reaction. If we're willing to accomodate even most absurd demands on the threat of being attacked by the rest of our group, we implicitly grant a minority the power to do whatever they want with us.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#328

Post by Lawtonfogle »

probably_wrong wrote: post #80
codecondo wrote: post #3

Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. In fact, he only expressed everything that had happened to him, and it just so happened that many people decided to stand up for him in what seems to be a situation of very, very poor judgement. On the other hand, great and naturally flowing writing by the author, really enjoyed swimming through the story!

> Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. I think he did: there seems to be no discussion that he violated the conference's code of conduct. If we want to reduce the sexism in tech, I think reporting these instances is perfectly fine, and even commendable. However. She could have asked them politely to stop. If she didn't feel safe doing that, she could have talked in private to the conference's or…

>there seems to be no discussion that he violated the conference's code of conduct

Did he? It sounds like there was a report he did violate it, they investigated, but upon explanation they weren't reprimanded. I took this to be that someone falsely accused them, and under investigation it was determined that the incident was actually harmless.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#329

Post by zamalek »

interpol_p wrote: post #92
near wrote: post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…

> I don't agree with Adria's public tweet

Turning around and asking them to stop would have been enough. If they didn't (by shrugging her off, or laughing at her request, or whatever) that would have been grounds to publicly shame them.

It doesn't matter who got off easier or worse. There could be a million reasons why Adria didn't get another job: the male-dominated industry is one. Here's a personal challenge, which of these would you hire:

* A female registered sex offender.

* A male who avoids tackling problems head-on and instead appeals to authority in order to get those problems removed.

I don't see a gender issue here, I do however see excuse and justification issues. Things still work out the same way in the end if you switch the genders around.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#330

Post by eropple »

obitoo wrote: post #153
interpol_p wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly it. We find it so hard to understand how that joke is threatening. It's almost impossible to imagine. It just sounds like a dumb joke. But look at how Adria describes her feelings in the article: “Have you ever had an altercation at school and you could feel the hairs rise up on your back?” she asked me. “You felt fear?” I asked. “Danger,” she said. “Clearly my body was telling me, ‘You are unsafe.’” I…

Rubbish. If someone feels some way about something I say when I never intended any harm to them by it then its entirely their problem. Her comparison with the schoolyard bully is moot, because there presumably would have been intent towards her in that case.

While I don't agree with Adria's actions, this is simply nonsensical. The most prejudiced person I know honestly feels as though she is intending no harm when she says that miscegenation should be illegal. It's still her problem that she's a galloping racist and hurting other people.
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