Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life • Hacker News Board

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#281

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 2:54 PM UTC

adl wrote: post #269

interpol_p wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like To her it's not 800+ people, it's 800+ men where you are one of the few women. That's not something I can say I've ever experienced. Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impos…

> Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine. The same Adria who herself made penis jokes on twitter a few days earlier and who was playing Cards Against Humanity at the same PyCon conference? What happened to her is shameful and can't be condoned in any way, shape or form, but she engaged in the same (o…

Twitter isn't a professional setting like a conference session, and anyone joining in a game of CAH is deliberately opting-in to a situation where offensively funny combinations are the entire point of the game.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#282

Post by TheHypnotist » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 2:54 PM UTC

Jem wrote: post #219

byuu wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that I can never directly relate to being a female. All I can do is think about things logically. If she truly had this kind of response to an innocuous joke, I think that says more about her own insecurities than about the behavior of Hank. Feeling danger in response to a bad joke in a crowded room is not a reasonable response to have. It's grossly over-proportionate. How far should we go to cater towar…

This reminds me of when I go out running at night. I avoid running near men (particularly groups of men) because of a fear that I'll come to harm: specifically rape. It's irrational, and unreasonable, but it's the reaction I have nonetheless. (This is common, FYI, many women feel like this.) I don't expect other people to cater towards my fear, but acknowledging that it's real and that it happens is important. Ridicu…

That sounds like something that goes deeper than the subject at hand.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#283

Post by andrea_s » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 2:54 PM UTC

adekok wrote: post #202

edent wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remind me when someone was last killed at a tech conference like she says? Very rarely, if ever. I don't know of any killings, but there have been a number of (high profile) sexual assaults at tech conferences - see http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents My friends say it's a regular (and sometimes terrifying) occurrence at some conferences. And I believe them.

Then she should be afraid of sexual assaults, not killings. And reading that page, I see most of the items are of this severity: > An offensive tweet was made against the PyLadies group Really? That's inappropriate, but it's not sexual assault. In fact, there are 14 instances of the word "assault". Which by my count is no more than 10% of the items. Over-exaggerating the problem is fear-mongering. This looks a lot li…

Honestly this list could use some trimming, you can't really have a "list of sexist incident" contain a change in the way blocking works on Twitter (http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Twitter_Blockgate)! At least, you can't if you want people to take the list seriously...

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#284

Post by visarga » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 2:55 PM UTC

KhalilK wrote: post #156

interpol_p wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I initially had a similar reaction but then forced myself to take a step back. I think I can sympathise with Adria regarding her initial reaction. She's a minority surrounded by men who are happy to make these sorts of jokes within earshot. It sounds harmless to us, but I can't even imagine what it's like to have been at PyCon as a black Jewish woman. It must be very difficult to attend such a conference and then hea…

I can't even imagine what it's like to have been at PyCon as a black Jewish woman Okay, being a female involved in what seems to be a male-dominated event might be a bit uncomfortable but how does being a black jewish relate? More precisely what does being Jewish have to do with anything?!

She's justifying her lack of empathy by that. He's of a different religion (I suppose he is Christian), so not in-group, but out-group. We have less empathy for out-group people.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#285

Post by josefresco » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 2:55 PM UTC

mtrimpe wrote: post #143

josefresco wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexual != sexist. I feel like this concept needs more attention. Anecdotally, I hear just as many sexual jokes from females as I do males - the concept that "they feel comfortable" and happen to be surrounded by similar people (while/male) does not make it sexist, or even threatening.

Involuntary sexualization is sexist though. What if the picture on screen was a woman saying 'I want to be judged on my merits not my gender' and the guys were saying 'Nice tits' out loud and laughing? Would that be sexism? I'd unequivocally say yes and, while inarguably less offensive, the dongle joke was still similarly sexist.

What if the picture on the screen was a male, and they cracked a joke about his "package" - who should be offended then? The presumably straight women listening in the next row? Any gay men within earshot? Everyone?

The game of what is considered sexually "offensive" or sexist gets very complex when you start considering sexuality outside the "norms". Suddenly, traditional "sexism" and the assumption that everyone is a straight male and straight female seems laughably archaic in a discussion of modern ethics.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#286

Post by saiya-jin » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 2:55 PM UTC

tormeh wrote: post #185

adekok wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes on: > “Danger,” she said. “Clearly my body was telling me, ‘You are unsafe.’” > “Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?” she said. Remind me when someone was last killed at a tech conference like she says? Very rarely, if ever. Did she feel bad about him being fired? Nope. > “He’s a white male. I’m a black Jewish female. He wa…

She sounds a bit sociopathic, really. Maybe she can be helped, but in the meantime I, at least, would stay very far away from her. Eh, why can't people be nice....

No matter how sad the thing is, she cannot be really helped that much. I mean, a decent psychoanalyst might deconstruct her to pieces and put back together (same goes for psychedelics but probably with bad results), but very few people go that way, and even fewer are actually helped. People like these are all around us, that's the really scary part for me. Some are quite obvious, some nto so much. Behaviour is same - playing victim, overreactions, their own twisted version of reality where they are right and everybody else isn't, some sort of attention whoring might be present too (some sad personal experiences here).

Have no doubt - I feel sorry for her. This shows how important is to have this happy careless childhood - investment that cashes back for the rest of our lives (I humbly think I am one of those, for which I am eternally thankful to my parents). Just as everybody else suggests - keep your distance from such people, or it might bite back.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#287

Post by juliangregorian » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 2:56 PM UTC

bluehex wrote: post #184

tomp wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Not too bad, he's a white male. I'm a black Jewish female." This makes her racist and sexist at the same time.

Technically she is not, according to [1] /s [1] https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/6039856858

Plus, she digs self-awareness.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#288

Post by tw04 » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 2:57 PM UTC

interpol_p wrote: post #92

near wrote: post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…

Yet she didn't think it was a big deal to make penis jokes herself. She's a hypocrite, plain and simple. And the way she acted in the post-interview appears to indicate she thinks it's OK for her to try to publicly shame people just to make a spectacle. Even when she's guilty of the exact. same. shit.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#289

Post by facepalm » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 2:58 PM UTC

probably_wrong wrote: post #80

codecondo wrote: post #3

Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. In fact, he only expressed everything that had happened to him, and it just so happened that many people decided to stand up for him in what seems to be a situation of very, very poor judgement. On the other hand, great and naturally flowing writing by the author, really enjoyed swimming through the story!

> Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. I think he did: there seems to be no discussion that he violated the conference's code of conduct. If we want to reduce the sexism in tech, I think reporting these instances is perfectly fine, and even commendable. However. She could have asked them politely to stop. If she didn't feel safe doing that, she could have talked in private to the conference's or…

Making jokes about dongles is not even sexism. Having a penis is not sexism either.

Unless the code of conduct is "don't offend anybody", which of course would be impossible to adhere to.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#290

Post by gregd » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 2:58 PM UTC

byuu wrote: post #135

interpol_p wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…

> jokes that make me feel threatened I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like, "Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?" She feared for her life over tasteless toilet humor in a crowded conference? Bullshit. Her Victorian sensibilit…

Let’s put ourselves into a position where we can be compassionate. As a woman in the tech industry and because of the utter lack of diversity, it is safe to assume that from the get go, attending conferences like this could be staggeringly intimidating.

Viewing it from this perspective outlines how easily one could be hypersensitive to comments, looks, smiles because you’re already going into it with that perspective. Now add in a childhood that consisted of abuse by a father to a mother and the shame she felt in attending school, we can now begin to understand her reality.

Adria has blockages in her life that are keeping her from living a life free from the burden she is carrying around. The very same blockages that may be contributing to what seems like a lack of empathy on her part. My only hope is that she seek out the right healer.