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Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

esquire.co.uk

251–260 of 528 posts

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly it. We find it so hard to understand how that joke is threatening. It's almost impossible to imagine. It just sounds like a dumb joke. But look at how Adria describes her feelings in the article: “Have you ever had an altercation at school and you could feel the hairs rise up on your back?” she asked me. “You felt fear?” I asked. “Danger,” she said. “Clearly my body was telling me, ‘You are unsafe.’” I…

The usual response to danger is flee or fight. She didn't flee. She didn't confront them. She shamed them publicly instead (which made it considerably more likely that they would take revenge physically instead). What is more likely, that she did this because she felt threatened, or because she felt like she could use her status to get back at the system? Not to mention the part where she herself tweets dick jokes.

> Not to mention the part where she herself tweets dick jokes.

Only Jews can tell Jew jokes. Only black people can tell n* jokes. Only a woman can tell dick jokes without shame?

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#252

I remember this episode well. Adria is more immature than the jokes that she supposedly got offended by. Let's ennumerate: - She overheard a conversation that wasn't directed at her. In the middle of a conference she was hopefully not coerced at attending and should be paying attention to the speaker - She took a picture of two people, without asking for permission - She twitted said picture with negative comments -…

> She took a picture of two people, without asking for permission - She twitted said picture with negative comments

That's the main thing imo. One may not expose normal persons in such a public way without asking for consent. If I attend a conference I have the right to stay anonymous.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#253
Please excuse my ignorance, but could someone explain to me how the joke about a big dongle was threatening or sexist?

A lot of people seem to just be accepting that at face value and I'm having issues understanding why that joke in particular would make her feel unsafe or uncomfortable. It just doesn't strike me as anything that could come across as such.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#254
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…

> jokes that make me feel threatened I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like, "Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?" She feared for her life over tasteless toilet humor in a crowded conference? Bullshit. Her Victorian sensibilit…

> You talk to a woman on an elevator... and > everyone assumes you're a sexual predator > because penis.

A woman's fear of unwanted sexual advances, assault, or rape from an unknown male when she's in a vulnerable position is entirely reasonable. Many women receive unwelcome sexual advances on a regular basis. Most men have basically no point of personal reference for this fear, but we should try to be aware of how the woman might perceive us rather than whining about being unfairly slighted.

According to the CDC, 18% of women report being raped at some point in their lives, versus 1.7% of men.[1] Given that, I think it's reasonable for women to feel a need for caution when dealing with strange men talking to them in elevators.

[1] http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#255
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly it. We find it so hard to understand how that joke is threatening. It's almost impossible to imagine. It just sounds like a dumb joke. But look at how Adria describes her feelings in the article: “Have you ever had an altercation at school and you could feel the hairs rise up on your back?” she asked me. “You felt fear?” I asked. “Danger,” she said. “Clearly my body was telling me, ‘You are unsafe.’” I…

You're right that I can never directly relate to being a female. All I can do is think about things logically. If she truly had this kind of response to an innocuous joke, I think that says more about her own insecurities than about the behavior of Hank. Feeling danger in response to a bad joke in a crowded room is not a reasonable response to have. It's grossly over-proportionate. How far should we go to cater towar…

We shouldn't chalk up her feelings to "her own insecurities" and we should assign them up to a serious lack of diversity in our field, which can make people feel excluded and unsafe.

If we can't acknowledge this woman's feelings seriously then we can't include her. That's not good enough.

I've seen Adria called "delusional", and "in need of therapy" in this thread. It makes me sad to think how quickly and easily we dismiss her.

The joke was innocuous, and I agree that her response was over-proportionate. I agree with you. The difference is I don't blame her for those actions because I think I can see how she felt in that situation. Same way I don't blame Hank for making a stupid joke because I've been there too.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#256
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, she doesn't look empathetic, but, considering the broader context, how much empathy can you reasonably expect? He lost his job and got a new one "right away" (according to the article). She also lost her job, was bombarded with all kinds of threats (death, rape, etc.), had to go into hiding and still doesn't have a new job (at least as of her interview for the piece). I'm sure she could improve her image if she w…

That, and her own childhood. We tend to relativize bad things in terms of what we've experienced ourselves. If I had seen my father beat the teeth out of my mothers mouth with a hammer I'm not so sure I'd be up in arms about somebody losing their job...

So you're saying that you'd be irreparably damaged for life? Overcoming those past experiences means understanding that they were aberrations.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#257
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not too bad, he's a white male. I'm a black Jewish female." Nice quote here. As you say, it really does make Richards look empathetic. /s But seriously, this is not good for her image.

No, she doesn't look empathetic, but, considering the broader context, how much empathy can you reasonably expect? He lost his job and got a new one "right away" (according to the article). She also lost her job, was bombarded with all kinds of threats (death, rape, etc.), had to go into hiding and still doesn't have a new job (at least as of her interview for the piece). I'm sure she could improve her image if she w…

She has a job, and still very active in the tech community.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But I can totally see how she could have been driven to do it, and I can even see how she would feel now — after all she's gone through — that she should not have to apologise for it." You can understand, yes, but that hatred-- and allow me to say that again-- hatred is not something that we can excuse on the basis of race alone. Adria really hates Hank; hated him so much that when she called down the twitter brigad…

See I don't get hatred at Hank, I mean, I did initially read it like that. But when I took a step back I started to see it as hatred of being excluded in a field you love. Hatred at the obliviousness of Hank — his inability to realise how vulnerable she felt simply attending a conference because she was in the minority. I think her view of Hank is to disregard him — kind of "Oh he'll be okay, the system's on his side…

> being excluded in a field

She wasn't being excluded. She wasn't being made fun of. She wasn't being oppressed.

If the joke was, "lol that dongle reminds me of penis!" then the only significance of that joke is that it acknowledges the existence of human sexual organs. That's it. That's all it does by itself.

All that about being offended and excluded and threatened, that is all baggage that she brought with her into that situation. She imagines that the joke was, "lol that dongle reminds me of penis ...and reminds me that we must continue to oppress all women muhahaha!"

That's her imagination. She made that part up. Hank didn't say or imply or even think anything remotely like that. And it doesn't matter if other people share her delusion - any more than it would matter if this was a religious issue and she was claiming someone had committed blasphemy. It doesn't matter that other people share the delusion that god is real.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#259
post #71
post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

> If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. Worse? One (presumably) could've had a ruined business due to DDoS which could've led to much more layoffs than just one-I'm-very-sorry-for Adria. Hanks' employer could've had much more troubles than simply loosing money - by having a "black-jewish-feminist-hater" in his staff.

Adria specifically pointed out that she doesn't identify with the feminist movement, so I'd say it's a bit of a stretch to posture he may be a "black-jewish-feminist hater"

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well free legal aid is worth what you pay for it in mine and other's experience. hopefully you won't have to rely on it someday. being rich certainly does help.

i disagree, free legal aid is very good, it just depends on your experience. i assume you are in the US and free legal aid there is the public defender where they are underfunded, overworked and probably not motivated by the system. In the UK where legal aid has been a part of the system for so long there is little difference between the quality of advice and representation. Some of the top firms for employment right…

I'm in the EU. My experience has been with juniors or people who may be older in years but very new to the profession and they used the cover of free legal aid to fish for paying customers for their firms.
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