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New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

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Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#71

Post by tonymillion »

venomsnake wrote: post #62
mc32 wrote: post #33

Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce? People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of…

The problem with H1B is that you are serf to your sponsor. If H1B was instead work visa that once you enter the US, you are free to work for 10 years the situation would have been different.

You are free to move on a H1B as long as you find a new employer willing to sponsor it - Bonus: you don't even need to go through the procedure again with USCIS

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#72

Post by flangloria »

UK-AL wrote: post #70
mc32 wrote: post #33

Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce? People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of…

There's nothing wrong in hiring immigrants. There is however something wrong where virtually every other profession has protection, but programmers don't. So wages will be lower compared to other professions, making it a job where skilled people might want to avoid even though they enjoy it. You either immigration for every profession or non at all. Not screwing one profession in particular.

Yes, but that would only work if you were forced by technological limitations and law to hire an expensive programmer locally.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#73

Post by _justin »

catchmrbharath wrote: post #59
martinald wrote: post #14

I find it difficult to understand why these companies would go to such lengths to save at absolute most 15-20% on salary. Even if there were no legal or immigration costs (which there definitely is), it seems to me they could easily do the same by getting someone from a less prosperous part of the US and moving them to, say, CA. I'm sure this happens all the time.

I would say, its more about obedience from the employee rather than saving money on salary. The Indian employees at TCS and Infosys are ready to work long hours and obediently carry out orders without questioning anything, which sometimes helps.

I am not sure about the "obedience" of employees in India. Would surprised if there is a slavery mentality among workers in these outsourcing firms. Its primarily cheap labour. And India produce a vast pool of engineering graduates every year. This is more of a demand supply problem. Have noting to do with caste or marital status. In tech industry, nobody cares about these.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#74

Post by glesica »

mc32 wrote: post #33

Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce? People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of…

> ...don't we also believe in a global workforce?

Tell that to the national governments that make it difficult for me, as an American, to move to their countries. We've got tons of treaties that require free movement of goods and capital but, very interestingly, I think, few that deal with the movement of people (labor) and almost none that make it an easy process (I realize there are zones where this is possible, such as in the EU, I'm speaking as an American).

> Is the implicit argument we should have a different system to allow a greater supply of tech immigrants but with a more flexible visa, maybe even grant residency status thus eliminating this kind of soft exploitation?

I, personally, would prefer a system of multi-lateral "free labor" agreements. If the US wants to let in workers from country A, then those workers should be 100% free to come to the US and work, no strings attached, no industry preferences, nothing. BUT, the same should also be true for US workers who wish to go to country A, otherwise, no deal.

This would create a truly more fluid workforce and, unlike with H1B, would benefit everyone instead of a few big companies and the handful of workers they bring in each year (while hurting everyone else).

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#75

Post by dropit_sphere »

mc32 wrote: post #46
codeonfire wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? Did you read the article? Here are the subtitles from the article and the first line of the referenced article: - Lower wages - H-1B is not a bridge to permanent immigration - H-1B is not about skills or skills gap "Information technology workers at Southern California Edison (SCE) are being laid off and replaced by workers from India."

Yes, I understand that. But that can be said about any immigrant workforce. Immigrants increase the pool of locally available workers, but, it appears, people welcome the benefits of immigration till the benefits (cheaper products and services) take away (threaten income) from them. In other words, would we care if Bangladeshis or Siberian Russians displaced Walmart, or farm workers? Probably not. We'd say, yay, more…

>In other words, would we care if Bangladeshis or Siberian Russians displaced Walmart, or farm workers? Probably not. We'd say, yay, more and cheaper products... but as soon as that workforce threatens tech --uh-oh, no, we can't have that. Immigration bad.

Is that suspect? I'm neither for nor against immigration in principle: I'm just seeking to optimize outcomes for me and my in-group.

We have a bias against people acting in their own interests when they have a public trust to act for the good of all. An ethical governor would ignore the fact that his family lives in a certain town when trying to decide where to put the new state prison.

But citizens of a country are under no such trust. It may not make Mexicans particularly happy that we have a giant fence down south, but this is not a betrayal. Foreign nationals are fellow human beings and it's great if I can help them, but I'm not under obligation to do so at the cost of my own or my neighbor's economic well-being.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#76

Post by dropit_sphere »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #49
coldtea wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow? Mostly that blacks have equal rights and are people too, so they should be paid the same. You know, like those Indians employers bring in so that can pay them less than American developers... If they are all for equality and against "arbitrary lines", they can start by paying those immigrant workers the same... >* Look at those greedy employers loweri…

Indians born in India are people too, yet people are advocating for economic protectionism against them. (Really, they are - I live in India, so if they weren't I'd be super lonely.) You drew an arbitrary line at "patriotism" before. Why "patriotism (USA)" rather than "white nationalism" or "patriotism (CA)"? Just your personal preference? Only if one believed that black are somehow inferior would that be a logical c…

> Why "patriotism (USA)" rather than "white nationalism" or "patriotism (CA)"? Just your personal preference?

Not just mine, but the vast majority of the US.

And "personal preference" goes by a name---voting.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#77

Post by thanksgiving »

pastProlog wrote: post #51
mc32 wrote: post #33

Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce? People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of…

> in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce So open the borders and let anyone who wants to come in come in and work any job they want - let them vote as well. Until that happens, I have a problem with this.

The simplest fix would be to give more rights to H1B workers. Assuming the workers are smart enough to work towards their personal self-interest, they'd then switch to places with higher wages for the same job or better work conditions. I can't see how it can ever be OK for my lead to make less money than I did just because he happens to be on a visa.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#78

Post by nothrabannosir »

glesica wrote: post #74
mc32 wrote: post #33

Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce? People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of…

> ...don't we also believe in a global workforce? Tell that to the national governments that make it difficult for me, as an American, to move to their countries. We've got tons of treaties that require free movement of goods and capital but, very interestingly, I think, few that deal with the movement of people (labor) and almost none that make it an easy process (I realize there are zones where this is possible, su…

We have ~this the other way around: the Dutch American Friendship Treaty allows US citizens to come to Holland and start a business (freelancer is Okay). You need 4.5K capital, sustained, and it renews every 2 years.

I would love it if the US could reciprocate :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT_%28treaty%29

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#80

Post by glesica »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #78
glesica wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...don't we also believe in a global workforce? Tell that to the national governments that make it difficult for me, as an American, to move to their countries. We've got tons of treaties that require free movement of goods and capital but, very interestingly, I think, few that deal with the movement of people (labor) and almost none that make it an easy process (I realize there are zones where this is possible, su…

We have ~this the other way around: the Dutch American Friendship Treaty allows US citizens to come to Holland and start a business (freelancer is Okay). You need 4.5K capital, sustained, and it renews every 2 years. I would love it if the US could reciprocate :( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT_%28treaty%29

That is very interesting, I didn't know about it. I feel like the capital requirement still means that it isn't for "labor" though. For instance, can people using that program get jobs? I wish my country, and others, would lower these sorts of barriers and let people go wherever they can be successful and happy.
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