New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program • Hacker News Board

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#41

Post by trevelyan » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:57 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #31

Potando wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps because of this thing called patriotism, a.k.a. "do not piss where you live"... Serious question - why patriotism for their country in preference to their state, country, city, continent, or planet? I've heard that Texas people don't like the rest of the USA. Perhaps they'd be more inclined to disallow out of state workers because their patriotism is applied at a different level than other Americans?

Or for that matter, while we are drawing arbitrary lines and applying economic protectionism, what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow? If one wants an economic "justification", I'm sure a quick google search can find articles a lot like this one - a quick stats dump with no controls showing that black people get paid less. Look at those greedy employers lowering wages by hiring black people!

Come on. The complaints are about the inegalitarian way market competition is used to drive down wages in specific sectors where workers are politically marginalized (tech rather than law, finance, medicine). People who suffer from this discrimination are not wrong to object to the selective commodification of their labour.

Additionally, the market-based alternative to H1-B is higher wages for domestic staff and expanded (and higher paying) contracting work abroad.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#42

Post by crdb » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 5:09 AM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #38

crdb wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just pilots. The wages in Hong Kong that you can get (source: headhunters approaching me) are literally multiples of US or EU rates. Amongst others I was offered USD 350k + bonus to head a data science team - and all I have is an unrelated engineering degree and three years' experience. This kind of package would be hard to get for a freshly minted Harvard MBA at a major bulge bracket bank... In finance, I've see…

> Whenever I can, I try to convince companies here to hire Americans or Europeans remotely or relocate them. Where do I sign up?

Unfortunately most companies/managers don't want to try it. I'm structuring my own company never to have a physical presence beyond the Hong Kong legal offices, but we are a big exception.

Judging by your other comments you're a fan of Thailand so maybe try Lazada, they are hiring a ridiculous number of engineers at the moment, salaries are very high for Bangkok, but the codebase (and politics, just from the size) might be a little painful, and a lot of the development is actually happening in Vietnam, which might be another barrier.

If you want loads of money for boring work, the best way is still to come to Singapore/HK, get any job to get a visa, and gradually contact every recruiter you can. Experienced "leadership capable" developers being rare they'll have plenty of spots, but none of them are going up on websites. The speed at which the market move is staggering, in one occasion I had an offer 2 hours after meeting the company person, and visas take about a week in Singapore.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#43

Post by coldtea » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 5:15 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #31

Potando wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps because of this thing called patriotism, a.k.a. "do not piss where you live"... Serious question - why patriotism for their country in preference to their state, country, city, continent, or planet? I've heard that Texas people don't like the rest of the USA. Perhaps they'd be more inclined to disallow out of state workers because their patriotism is applied at a different level than other Americans?

Or for that matter, while we are drawing arbitrary lines and applying economic protectionism, what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow? If one wants an economic "justification", I'm sure a quick google search can find articles a lot like this one - a quick stats dump with no controls showing that black people get paid less. Look at those greedy employers lowering wages by hiring black people!

>what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow?

Mostly that blacks have equal rights and are people too, so they should be paid the same. You know, like those Indians employers bring in so that can pay them less than American developers...

If they are all for equality and against "arbitrary lines", they can start by paying those immigrant workers the same...

>* Look at those greedy employers lowering wages by hiring black people!*

Only if one believed that black are somehow inferior would that be a logical conclusion.

In any other case, and assuming you're not racist, the problem is "paying less", not "paying black people", just in the case of Indian developers the problem is paying them less than Americans for work they do in the US.

And yeah, back in the day those Jim Crow employers also thought themselves very generous for giving those blacks a job. After all, like those "poor Indian developers", they would starve without it, so they would better appreciate it, even if it's smaller than what they'd pay whites...

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#44

Post by codeonfire » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 5:17 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #33

Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce? People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of…

>Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic?

Did you read the article? Here are the subtitles from the article and the first line of the referenced article: - Lower wages - H-1B is not a bridge to permanent immigration - H-1B is not about skills or skills gap

"Information technology workers at Southern California Edison (SCE) are being laid off and replaced by workers from India."

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#45

Post by logn » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 5:25 AM UTC

martinald wrote: post #14

I find it difficult to understand why these companies would go to such lengths to save at absolute most 15-20% on salary. Even if there were no legal or immigration costs (which there definitely is), it seems to me they could easily do the same by getting someone from a less prosperous part of the US and moving them to, say, CA. I'm sure this happens all the time.

US companies bring in these consultants tens or hundreds at a time to a single office. If they hired locally for all these positions, they'd have to pay a lot higher than 20% premium. And if they flew in consultants from around the US, they'd be paying a fortune per hour (how many good USA developers seriously consider 100% travel jobs unless they pay ridiculously well?).

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#46

Post by mc32 » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 5:25 AM UTC

codeonfire wrote: post #44

mc32 wrote: post #33

Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce? People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of…

>Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? Did you read the article? Here are the subtitles from the article and the first line of the referenced article: - Lower wages - H-1B is not a bridge to permanent immigration - H-1B is not about skills or skills gap "Information technology workers at Southern California Edison (SCE) are being laid off and replaced by workers from India."

Yes, I understand that. But that can be said about any immigrant workforce. Immigrants increase the pool of locally available workers, but, it appears, people welcome the benefits of immigration till the benefits (cheaper products and services) take away (threaten income) from them.

In other words, would we care if Bangladeshis or Siberian Russians displaced Walmart, or farm workers? Probably not. We'd say, yay, more and cheaper products... but as soon as that workforce threatens tech --uh-oh, no, we can't have that. Immigration bad.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#47

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 5:25 AM UTC

codeonfire wrote: post #44

mc32 wrote: post #33

Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce? People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of…

>Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? Did you read the article? Here are the subtitles from the article and the first line of the referenced article: - Lower wages - H-1B is not a bridge to permanent immigration - H-1B is not about skills or skills gap "Information technology workers at Southern California Edison (SCE) are being laid off and replaced by workers from India."

[deleted]

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#48

Post by codeonfire » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 5:38 AM UTC

martinald wrote: post #14

I find it difficult to understand why these companies would go to such lengths to save at absolute most 15-20% on salary. Even if there were no legal or immigration costs (which there definitely is), it seems to me they could easily do the same by getting someone from a less prosperous part of the US and moving them to, say, CA. I'm sure this happens all the time.

For outsourcing firms its about institutionalized racism. In India, applicants put who their parents are, if they're married, where they were born, how old they are, height, weight, etc all on their resume. That is the kind of power they have if they only hire Indians. Why would they hire Americans who can sue them for discrimination?

It's also not just about saving money. Modern day corporations (and probably old fashioned ones) are basically extortion pyramids. The entire livelihood of everybody with employees at a corporation depends on having complete control over their subordinates. Why would you hire someone that can quit when you piss them off. Corps hire people for management jobs on visa as well. Its all about control. The thought is you're nothing if you don't have people under control. It's sad that corporations work that way, but that doesn't change the fact that they do.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#49

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 5:56 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #43

yummyfajitas wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or for that matter, while we are drawing arbitrary lines and applying economic protectionism, what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow? If one wants an economic "justification", I'm sure a quick google search can find articles a lot like this one - a quick stats dump with no controls showing that black people get paid less. Look at those greedy employers lowering wages by hiring black people!

> what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow? Mostly that blacks have equal rights and are people too, so they should be paid the same. You know, like those Indians employers bring in so that can pay them less than American developers... If they are all for equality and against "arbitrary lines", they can start by paying those immigrant workers the same... >* Look at those greedy employers loweri…

Indians born in India are people too, yet people are advocating for economic protectionism against them. (Really, they are - I live in India, so if they weren't I'd be super lonely.)

You drew an arbitrary line at "patriotism" before. Why "patriotism (USA)" rather than "white nationalism" or "patriotism (CA)"? Just your personal preference?

Only if one believed that black are somehow inferior would that be a logical conclusion.

It's unclear to me how it would be a logical conclusion even if one did believe blacks are inferior on some dimension. Could you explain?

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#50

Post by codeonfire » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 5:57 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #46

codeonfire wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? Did you read the article? Here are the subtitles from the article and the first line of the referenced article: - Lower wages - H-1B is not a bridge to permanent immigration - H-1B is not about skills or skills gap "Information technology workers at Southern California Edison (SCE) are being laid off and replaced by workers from India."

Yes, I understand that. But that can be said about any immigrant workforce. Immigrants increase the pool of locally available workers, but, it appears, people welcome the benefits of immigration till the benefits (cheaper products and services) take away (threaten income) from them. In other words, would we care if Bangladeshis or Siberian Russians displaced Walmart, or farm workers? Probably not. We'd say, yay, more…

Well, yes lots of Americans do care who comes into the country and from where and there is nothing wrong with that. Lots of people also don't buy the cheapest meat, cheapest coffee, cheapest clothing, etc.