New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program • Hacker News Board

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#31

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:10 AM UTC

Potando wrote: post #28

coldtea wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal". Maybe because it was not intended to "lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty" but to "lower or keep the same american developer wages"? As if those US business owners give a rats arse about getting "poor Indian workers out of poverty". If those guys a…

> Perhaps because of this thing called patriotism, a.k.a. "do not piss where you live"... Serious question - why patriotism for their country in preference to their state, country, city, continent, or planet? I've heard that Texas people don't like the rest of the USA. Perhaps they'd be more inclined to disallow out of state workers because their patriotism is applied at a different level than other Americans?

Or for that matter, while we are drawing arbitrary lines and applying economic protectionism, what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow?

If one wants an economic "justification", I'm sure a quick google search can find articles a lot like this one - a quick stats dump with no controls showing that black people get paid less. Look at those greedy employers lowering wages by hiring black people!

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#32

Post by cstejerean » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:25 AM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #26

geebee wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Find me any company that doesn't have a difficult time sourcing well-qualified Rails developers, or experienced JavaScript experts. There is huge demand, not enough supply" My problems with this statement is that you didn't mention pay or working conditions. Are they hiring for general talent, offering 200k a year with a nice private office? Are they offering 100k, forcing people to work in a loud open office where…

A good analogy is the so-called "pilot shortage" among US-based airlines. There are plenty of pilots around; there just aren't enough pilots anymore who are willing to work for the wages and conditions that exist at the entry level of those airlines. A common figure I've seen quoted is that the education, training and certification required to become an airline pilot comes in around $250,000 total, while the starting…

The problem with pilot wages though is entirely due to the pilot unions of the various airlines. Those with seniority get to pick the best routes and can earn $250-300k. The new pilots however end up working terrible routes and earn 1/10th of that. Overall there is a huge amount of money going towards pilot pay because pilot unions have huge negotiating power. But the unions have determined how to distribute that wealth.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#33

Post by mc32 » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:25 AM UTC

Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce?

People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of (illegal) immigrants --farmers, even descendants of immigrants oppose amnesty because that would result in the help actually getting legal jobs which pay more. But here, in the case of H1Bs, people seem to have a strong dislike for them. They are just people looking for jobs like anyone else.

Is the implicit argument we should have a different system to allow a greater supply of tech immigrants but with a more flexible visa, maybe even grant residency status thus eliminating this kind of soft exploitation?

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#34

Post by visadoor » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:27 AM UTC

boca wrote: post #8

I don't understand why they would compare the average wage of all H1B workers spread throughout the US against that of a particular job title (Computer Systems Analyst) in Los Angeles CA. Wages obviously vary by job title and location. No surprises that wages in CA are higher. I searched to see what Infosys (1) and TCS (2) actually pay a "Computer Systems Analyst" and found: - For Infosys, there's only one result for…

The article references data from 2013.

This is a more complete list:

http://visadoor.com/h1bvisa-by-companies-2014-infosys-limite...

http://visadoor.com/h1bvisa-by-companies-2014-tata-consultan...

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#35

Post by crdb » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:31 AM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #26

geebee wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Find me any company that doesn't have a difficult time sourcing well-qualified Rails developers, or experienced JavaScript experts. There is huge demand, not enough supply" My problems with this statement is that you didn't mention pay or working conditions. Are they hiring for general talent, offering 200k a year with a nice private office? Are they offering 100k, forcing people to work in a loud open office where…

A good analogy is the so-called "pilot shortage" among US-based airlines. There are plenty of pilots around; there just aren't enough pilots anymore who are willing to work for the wages and conditions that exist at the entry level of those airlines. A common figure I've seen quoted is that the education, training and certification required to become an airline pilot comes in around $250,000 total, while the starting…

Not just pilots. The wages in Hong Kong that you can get (source: headhunters approaching me) are literally multiples of US or EU rates. Amongst others I was offered USD 350k + bonus to head a data science team - and all I have is an unrelated engineering degree and three years' experience. This kind of package would be hard to get for a freshly minted Harvard MBA at a major bulge bracket bank...

In finance, I've seen some eye watering packages in China for the same reason, including base salaries of 600k and 750k respectively for someone who was making 300k, at a large institution and a small hedge fund. Obviously, with the local cost of living the difference is magnified.

Personally, moving to Asia was the best career move I ever made; the local economies grow at 15% a year, the local companies grow even faster, and there's a real lack of talent locally vs the ultra-competitive US market. Whenever I can, I try to convince companies here to hire Americans or Europeans remotely or relocate them.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#36

Post by yardie » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:49 AM UTC

cstejerean wrote: post #32

ubernostrum wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good analogy is the so-called "pilot shortage" among US-based airlines. There are plenty of pilots around; there just aren't enough pilots anymore who are willing to work for the wages and conditions that exist at the entry level of those airlines. A common figure I've seen quoted is that the education, training and certification required to become an airline pilot comes in around $250,000 total, while the starting…

The problem with pilot wages though is entirely due to the pilot unions of the various airlines. Those with seniority get to pick the best routes and can earn $250-300k. The new pilots however end up working terrible routes and earn 1/10th of that. Overall there is a huge amount of money going towards pilot pay because pilot unions have huge negotiating power. But the unions have determined how to distribute that wea…

The best routes and best pay are on the long haul, wide body flights. These planes are in the 100s of millions of dollar range. I think it's completely logical an airline would trust their most expensive high revenue flights to the pilots that have seen some shit and negotiated it successfully.

The real reason of the pilot shortage is because the FAA now requires commercial pilots to have 1500 hours of flight time before they can work for an airline. Flight schools will give you 300-400 hours and the rest you have to make up some how. Just like every job these days, everyone wants experienced, entry level candidates.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#37

Post by suprgeek » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:51 AM UTC

Ron Hira is a charming fellow associated with the EPI. Check out what VivekW says about him http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/28/840005/

(wile VivekW is not exactly an "Unbiased" commentator).

So as not to keep this ad-homoniem the data comparison is silly

Avg & Median wages On one side vs Specific SoCal wages on the other?

That said some of the criticisms are valid: TCS, Infosys, Wipro & Cognizant are terrible at taking care of their US employees. They very rarely get a chance at a greencard among other exploitative practices.

Unfortunately Ron is sabotaging his own argument by using flaky data & being a tool.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#38

Post by toomuchtodo » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:54 AM UTC

crdb wrote: post #35

ubernostrum wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good analogy is the so-called "pilot shortage" among US-based airlines. There are plenty of pilots around; there just aren't enough pilots anymore who are willing to work for the wages and conditions that exist at the entry level of those airlines. A common figure I've seen quoted is that the education, training and certification required to become an airline pilot comes in around $250,000 total, while the starting…

Not just pilots. The wages in Hong Kong that you can get (source: headhunters approaching me) are literally multiples of US or EU rates. Amongst others I was offered USD 350k + bonus to head a data science team - and all I have is an unrelated engineering degree and three years' experience. This kind of package would be hard to get for a freshly minted Harvard MBA at a major bulge bracket bank... In finance, I've see…

> Whenever I can, I try to convince companies here to hire Americans or Europeans remotely or relocate them.

Where do I sign up?

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#39

Post by kchoudhu » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:55 AM UTC

Zikes wrote: post #24

martinald wrote: post #14

I find it difficult to understand why these companies would go to such lengths to save at absolute most 15-20% on salary. Even if there were no legal or immigration costs (which there definitely is), it seems to me they could easily do the same by getting someone from a less prosperous part of the US and moving them to, say, CA. I'm sure this happens all the time.

H-1B is intended to be temporary, 3-6 years. That means no need for pensions and no time to accumulate a great deal of raises or benefits. I would also imagine it's a lot easier to convince an employee to "go the extra mile" when you're dangling their ability to remain in the country over their head, especially if they're also applying for citizenship.

This is America. Pensions have been dead for at least twenty years.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#40

Post by markdown » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:56 AM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #26

geebee wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Find me any company that doesn't have a difficult time sourcing well-qualified Rails developers, or experienced JavaScript experts. There is huge demand, not enough supply" My problems with this statement is that you didn't mention pay or working conditions. Are they hiring for general talent, offering 200k a year with a nice private office? Are they offering 100k, forcing people to work in a loud open office where…

A good analogy is the so-called "pilot shortage" among US-based airlines. There are plenty of pilots around; there just aren't enough pilots anymore who are willing to work for the wages and conditions that exist at the entry level of those airlines. A common figure I've seen quoted is that the education, training and certification required to become an airline pilot comes in around $250,000 total, while the starting…

I'm in Fiji. There are American pilots flying for great wages here. Fijian pilots get the shaft though, and only barely get by on their wages.

The Fijians then take jobs in places the americans find harder to stomach (Papua New Guinea, the middle east, etc) and make more than the American expat pilots in Fiji do.