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New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

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Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#51

Post by pastProlog »

mc32 wrote: post #33

Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce? People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of…

> in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce

So open the borders and let anyone who wants to come in come in and work any job they want - let them vote as well.

Until that happens, I have a problem with this.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#52

Post by yummyfajitas »

codeonfire wrote: post #48
martinald wrote: post #14

I find it difficult to understand why these companies would go to such lengths to save at absolute most 15-20% on salary. Even if there were no legal or immigration costs (which there definitely is), it seems to me they could easily do the same by getting someone from a less prosperous part of the US and moving them to, say, CA. I'm sure this happens all the time.

For outsourcing firms its about institutionalized racism. In India, applicants put who their parents are, if they're married, where they were born, how old they are, height, weight, etc all on their resume. That is the kind of power they have if they only hire Indians. Why would they hire Americans who can sue them for discrimination? It's also not just about saving money. Modern day corporations (and probably old fa…

I just looked at the first 5 candidates sitting in my recruiterbox account (hiring for a position in Delhi). Not a single one listed parents, marital status, birth location, age, height or weight.

You are correct that outside IT, hiring decisions rely heavily on the community. Within most serious IT firms, which definitively include Infosys and Tata, hiring is roughly as meritocratic as it is in the west. That's due to simple market forces - your community is simply not big enough or smart enough that you can hire exclusively from within it.

("Community" refers to a narrow slice of your ethnic group, e.g. Parsis, Gujus or Conkanis.)

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#54

Post by Potando »

coldtea wrote: post #43
yummyfajitas wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or for that matter, while we are drawing arbitrary lines and applying economic protectionism, what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow? If one wants an economic "justification", I'm sure a quick google search can find articles a lot like this one - a quick stats dump with no controls showing that black people get paid less. Look at those greedy employers lowering wages by hiring black people!

> what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow? Mostly that blacks have equal rights and are people too, so they should be paid the same. You know, like those Indians employers bring in so that can pay them less than American developers... If they are all for equality and against "arbitrary lines", they can start by paying those immigrant workers the same... >* Look at those greedy employers loweri…

> If they are all for equality and against "arbitrary lines", they can start by paying those immigrant workers the same...

I agree, but it would have to come with granting an H1B to every applicant or having an open door immigration policy. Otherwise it's not paying them the same, it's "segregating" them to India where they have to suffer lower wages. Much like black people not being allowed to work in high paying jobs.

It's amazing that people can believe it's wrong to discriminate against race (accident of birth) while at the same time insist on discrimination against nationality (almost the same accident of birth).

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#55

Post by conistonwater »

martinald wrote: post #14

I find it difficult to understand why these companies would go to such lengths to save at absolute most 15-20% on salary. Even if there were no legal or immigration costs (which there definitely is), it seems to me they could easily do the same by getting someone from a less prosperous part of the US and moving them to, say, CA. I'm sure this happens all the time.

> Even if there were no legal or immigration costs (which there definitely is), it seems to me they could easily do the same by getting someone from a less prosperous part of the US and moving them to, say, CA. I'm sure this happens all the time.

This logic seems wrong: if a person moves from somewhere to CA, they should now be paid a CA-level salary. Consider that at any point they can quit, and to every other employer they will look like a regular CA job market participant, so the other employers would offer them a CA-level salary. So you can't, in fact, hire someone from outside CA and have them work in CA at a low salary: they would just quickly move to a similar but higher-paid job.

This logic breaks down with visas that restrict your choice of employers. If your freedom to pick your employer is taken away, then your logic is correct: it would be possible to hire someone in CA at a low salary, without them immediately switching jobs, because they are forbidden from doing that.

The 20% premium that the company collects on the salary is (at least partially) a consequence of this lack of employee's freedom in the labour market. Without this restriction you would expect skill-adjusted salaries to be equal for visa and non-visa employees. It's not even anything to do with immigration per se, just this type of visa.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#56

Post by rayiner »

mc32 wrote: post #33

Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce? People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of…

Lots of people don't believe in a global economy either, and the idea of a global workforce comes at a very bad time.

The last few years, I've lived and worked in Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Wilmington. All are shadows of their former shells, hollowed out by deindustrialization. What little remains is threatened by automation. Proponents of technology, and of globalization in capital and labor tell me that it will lead to greater prosperity for everyone. New, better jobs will replace the ones that are lost. We're waiting.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#57

Post by mc32 »

rayiner wrote: post #56
mc32 wrote: post #33

Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce? People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of…

Lots of people don't believe in a global economy either, and the idea of a global workforce comes at a very bad time. The last few years, I've lived and worked in Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Wilmington. All are shadows of their former shells, hollowed out by deindustrialization. What little remains is threatened by automation. Proponents of technology, and of globalization in capital and labor tell me that it will l…

Lots of people say they are for immigrants' rights, but they really aren't in practice. There are ideological forces which on the one hand welcome immigrants into 1st world economies, but then are against globalization --meanwhile, both forces work toward one goal, economically --to bring economic parity, long term. Those forces do cause disruption. On the one hand you have the ebb of some industries here but they are expanding and benefiting destitute people elsewhere in the world. So the middle class is saying, they believe they had a "right" of a middle class lifestyle, moreso than people in other parts of thew world.

We can argue if we think there should be 7 billion people who consume goods at the same rate as Americans, Japanese and Europeans, but so long as we accept an integrated world where we want emigration and immigration and further neo liberal economics, this is the progression we are looking at.

When people bemoan the hollowing out of industries while at the same time saying they support peoples in the third world, something is not right. They are lamenting the loss of their jobs but those jobs are being transferred to second and third world economies helping to build them.

What do we do about the people who aren't able to retool for more skilled jobs? It's an open question. Some day something will have to give. Either we figure out a way to manage that or society will suffer the consequences of inattention.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#58

Post by donw »

dminor wrote: post #18
donw wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I have no comment on the parent article, I have done a lot of market research over the past few years, as part of a potential product to help companies hire better people, faster. In doing so, I've noticed that there are two primary ways that companies artificially limit themselves to a tiny pool of eligible people: One: An interview process based on trivia and logic puzzles, not "can this person drive success"…

Three: not considering good programmers who don't have experience in the language(s) the company uses. We as programmers know it's not a big deal to learn another language, but somehow this hasn't translated to the hiring process.

Not exactly.

Learning a new programming language -- really learning it, and understanding how the ecosystem works -- is a three- to six-month process for most programmers.

Let's say my team needed a new developer for a hardware project. I would probably not hire an experienced Ruby or Python dev that had no C experience.

A few months of hacking C in their spare time on a personal project with an Arduino? Now I'm interested.

Initiative and self-teaching are hugely important traits.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#59

Post by catchmrbharath »

martinald wrote: post #14

I find it difficult to understand why these companies would go to such lengths to save at absolute most 15-20% on salary. Even if there were no legal or immigration costs (which there definitely is), it seems to me they could easily do the same by getting someone from a less prosperous part of the US and moving them to, say, CA. I'm sure this happens all the time.

I would say, its more about obedience from the employee rather than saving money on salary.

The Indian employees at TCS and Infosys are ready to work long hours and obediently carry out orders without questioning anything, which sometimes helps.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#60

Post by johnloeber »

crdb wrote: post #42
toomuchtodo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whenever I can, I try to convince companies here to hire Americans or Europeans remotely or relocate them. Where do I sign up?

Unfortunately most companies/managers don't want to try it. I'm structuring my own company never to have a physical presence beyond the Hong Kong legal offices, but we are a big exception. Judging by your other comments you're a fan of Thailand so maybe try Lazada, they are hiring a ridiculous number of engineers at the moment, salaries are very high for Bangkok, but the codebase (and politics, just from the size) mi…

These are some very interesting insights that you are sharing. I'd love to hear more about this -- southeast Asia seems like an exceptionally lucrative place to work if you are "playing it right." Do you have an e-mail address that I can write a few (short) questions to?
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