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Tired of Safari

quirksmode.org

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Re: Tired of Safari

#91

Post by bzbarsky »

QuantumRoar wrote: post #49
bluerobotcat wrote: post #41

Meanwhile Chrome and IE still don't support MathML. Now that is annoying.

Is MathML actually widely used? I can't believe anyone would really want to use something else than the LaTeX stuff for typesetting formulas. There's nothing as pretty as LaTeX for that. Recently I wrote a small tool that enables me to write LaTeX code directly in HTML and the tool then renders the LaTeX code in PDF, converts it to SVG and places an appropriate img-tag with the reference to the generated SVG. I was u…

Some reasons to prefer MathML:

1) Working find-in-page that lets you search equations too.

2) Ability to select, copy, paste the math bits.

3) Better accessibility. LaTeX in alt text is something, but actual semantic markup would allow the UA to present things to the user the way the user wants more easily (e.g. without having to re-parse the LaTeX).

4) Ease of editing and reuse (c.f. view source).

5) Ease of styling (e.g. you can use colors to highlight parts of an equation as needed and change it dynamically; some teaching sites put this to very good use).

Note that there do exist LaTeX to MathML converters, so you can still author in LaTeX if you want and export to MathML.

Re: Tired of Safari

#92

Post by falcolas »

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #89
falcolas wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple only has finite resources, too. Apple's finite is larger than every other company out there (to quote an article from earlier this week). I'm pretty sure that any issues Safari is encountering is not due to Apple reaching a "finite" limit of any kind. EDIT: Many of your responses posit Apple as some kind of underdog, struggling to make it in this industry. Given Apple's size and talent, this viewpoint is all…

Depends on your definition of "size." I can find the reference, but I believe Apple has under a third as many developers as Microsoft, and certainly fewer than Google. While they have money, their pay scale isn't famous for being extravagant. People work there mostly for prestige, but you can get money and prestige working for a startup. Cook has said publicly that their biggest challenge is talent retention. They're…

All of these problems could be solved by a company with Apple's resources if they wanted the problems solved.

Need more developers? Hire more.

Payscale problems? Pay your developers what they are worth to you. Of course, if they aren't worth much to you, then this point is moot.

Retention problems? Addressed by both points one and two.

That they do not use their resources to solve these problems says more than the fact that they have these problems.

Re: Tired of Safari

#93

Post by orkoden »

bitdev wrote: post #83
bonn1 wrote: post #14

It's obvious that Apple slowed down innovating the web since the core of their business is iOS and apps. They shouldn't have any interest in a fast innovating web that gets on par with native apps which is their main lock-in for iOS, just like Microsoft 15 years ago. They only speed up their rendering engine and JS core but don't try to help on standards improving the web experience. BUT: I doubt this pointer event t…

Am I missing something? Banning 3rd party browsers? Isn't there chrome for iOS, as well as atomic web browser? Just off the top of my head. Maybe others, for all I know.

They all use the same rendering engine as Safari though.

Re: Tired of Safari

#94

Post by orkoden »

bitdev wrote: post #83
bonn1 wrote: post #14

It's obvious that Apple slowed down innovating the web since the core of their business is iOS and apps. They shouldn't have any interest in a fast innovating web that gets on par with native apps which is their main lock-in for iOS, just like Microsoft 15 years ago. They only speed up their rendering engine and JS core but don't try to help on standards improving the web experience. BUT: I doubt this pointer event t…

Am I missing something? Banning 3rd party browsers? Isn't there chrome for iOS, as well as atomic web browser? Just off the top of my head. Maybe others, for all I know.

They all use the same rendering engine as Safari though.

Re: Tired of Safari

#95

Post by taf2 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #90
munsoji wrote: post #88

As a developer who spent the last few months trying to get a website with touch events to work on the surface 3, I need to get this off my chest. Microsoft, make up your mind. Do you want a browser that websites 'just work' in or do you want to keep implementing broken standards and forcing other browsers to adopt them? Pick one and don't try to find some weird middle ground where you implement webkit touch events on…

A bug, and an extra event listener? That's enough to drive you mad? Sorry, that seems pretty mild. I understand getting wound up after spending too much time figuring out an issue. Maybe walk away from it for an hour, get a cup of something, vent on HN. Oh! That's what you're doing.

Here's the thing this is just one example of one issue of thousands. And at the end of the day the difference is with Mozilla and Chromium I can jump on irc and talk directly to the people working on those browsers and get their advice for the best way to work around a current issue. I can get insight into whether a fix is in progress and I can vent my frustrations. I can also rest easy knowing that in 1-3 months a fix is likely to arrive... For IE this is all none- existent. The original comment is spot on IMO about the state of Microsoft and IE. Safari, has it's issues and I wish Apple would innovate faster but at least the core of Safari is open via Webkit and similar to Mozilla and Chromium I have someone to reach out to... I have nothing from MS/IE - I don't even target that browser anymore. If a customer complains about the site not working - it means either.

a. they're on Window XP and no worth the trouble.

b. they just need to open chrome.

And yes - this is a much better web than we had with MS/IE

Re: Tired of Safari

#96

Post by gsnedders »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #23
lars wrote: post #10

Repeating what I said in previous thread: There are real problems with the Touch Events spec, and we need a replacement. One issue is that it is under specified w.r.t its compatibility with mouse events. A concrete example: Should the touchmove event trigger the mousemove event? I believe it does in IE and Firefox, while it does not in Chrome and Safari. This isn't specified anywhere, and can make it incredibly compl…

For whatever reason, despite all the standardisation out there, DOM input always has been this massive cross-browser incompatible inconsistent proprietary clusterfuck. quirksmode.org may be known to some of you as this guy's blog, but it is best known for its DOM event compatibility tables, which somehow still matter in 2015. If browser vendors cannot fix mouse and keyboard, why would they fix touch?

A lot of time has been sunk into trying to fix keyboard especially, but it's a horrible, horrible mess — pretty much whatever you do will break websites, given so many do if (UAx) expect_behaviour_x() else if (UAy) expect_behaviour_y() etc., so even standardising on existing behaviour doesn't work. Then there's fact that some of it is down to locales and what the current keymap is… :(

Re: Tired of Safari

#97

Post by pcwalton »

bonn1 wrote: post #58
experimental- wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vertical centering has been relatively easy since CSS 2.1 (Table model); flexbox of course offers much more than that. Flexbox may be finalized and unchangeable, if only because so many browsers already support it unprefixed (as support for such properties is almost never removed) – however, like much of the CSS3, flexible box model is not yet a W3C Recommendation, and is, in theory at least, subject to change. With…

> Vertical centering has been relatively easy since CSS 2.1 (Table model) But not with divs which are more common

It's not hard, really: just use absolute centering [1]. That's actually what "margin: auto" is there for in CSS 2.1; it's a shame they were bad at evangelizing it.

[1]: http://codepen.io/shshaw/full/gEiDt

Re: Tired of Safari

#98

Post by gsnedders »

pornel wrote: post #81

To me more worrying is Apple's complete silence on Service Worker: https://jakearchibald.github.io/isserviceworkerready/ I agree with sentiment of the article, but I don't care about PointerEvents in particular. Good UI needs to have separate code paths for touch and mouse anyway, e.g. swiping with a mouse feels stupid. For trivial stuff TouchEvents already simulate mouse events and every new technology will — these…

Apple are frequently silent on things until they start to implement them. They almost never promise to implement things until they are almost done.

Re: Tired of Safari

#99

Post by munsoji »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #90
munsoji wrote: post #88

As a developer who spent the last few months trying to get a website with touch events to work on the surface 3, I need to get this off my chest. Microsoft, make up your mind. Do you want a browser that websites 'just work' in or do you want to keep implementing broken standards and forcing other browsers to adopt them? Pick one and don't try to find some weird middle ground where you implement webkit touch events on…

A bug, and an extra event listener? That's enough to drive you mad? Sorry, that seems pretty mild. I understand getting wound up after spending too much time figuring out an issue. Maybe walk away from it for an hour, get a cup of something, vent on HN. Oh! That's what you're doing.

Maybe not enough to drive one mad on an intuitive, functional device, but enough to push one over the edge when debugging on a surface. I feel like I'm being tasked with drawing an idyllic landscape on a grain of rice with only a box of crayons, in that while it will be impressive to the .01% of users that might see it the other 99.99% will never notice nor appreciate the effort.

Re: Tired of Safari

#100

Post by Elepsis »

bonn1 wrote: post #87
BinaryIdiot wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is still pretty new and not all browsers support it; pointer events is a better solution to this problem.

Chrome on Android and Safari on iOS support it for more than a year now => 93% of the market

Your 93% market number is perhaps accurate in the entirely hypothetical world where most Android devices actually get swift upgrades to new versions, but not in reality.
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