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Tired of Safari

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Re: Tired of Safari

#81

Post by pornel »

To me more worrying is Apple's complete silence on Service Worker: https://jakearchibald.github.io/isserviceworkerready/

I agree with sentiment of the article, but I don't care about PointerEvents in particular. Good UI needs to have separate code paths for touch and mouse anyway, e.g. swiping with a mouse feels stupid.

For trivial stuff TouchEvents already simulate mouse events and every new technology will — these events are our common compatibility layer already.

TouchEvents are a bit of a mess, but it's fixable and it's being worked on, e.g. standardising simulated mouse events, removing click delay, adding ability to prevent scroll from any touchmove event.

TouchEvents even sometimes nicer to work with, e.g. touchend will be fired on the same element that received touchstart (there are edge cases in there, but I've never ran into them), while this is not guaranteed with pointerup, so it's easy to write bad code that causes dragged elements become "sticky".

Re: Tired of Safari

#82

Post by madsravn »

On the subject of things I'm tired about. That website uses 448 px for the main content. For me that is 448 px of 1905 px. That's not even a quarter of my screen. Why in the world would you do something like this?

Re: Tired of Safari

#83

Post by bitdev »

bonn1 wrote: post #14

It's obvious that Apple slowed down innovating the web since the core of their business is iOS and apps. They shouldn't have any interest in a fast innovating web that gets on par with native apps which is their main lock-in for iOS, just like Microsoft 15 years ago. They only speed up their rendering engine and JS core but don't try to help on standards improving the web experience. BUT: I doubt this pointer event t…

Am I missing something? Banning 3rd party browsers?

Isn't there chrome for iOS, as well as atomic web browser? Just off the top of my head. Maybe others, for all I know.

Re: Tired of Safari

#84

Post by ickwabe »

madsravn wrote: post #82

On the subject of things I'm tired about. That website uses 448 px for the main content. For me that is 448 px of 1905 px. That's not even a quarter of my screen. Why in the world would you do something like this?

A few arguments:

http://www.humanfactors.com/newsletters/optimal_line_length....

http://www.ninjapost.com/blog/on-the-importance-of-narrow-co...

http://socialtriggers.com/perfect-content-width/

Re: Tired of Safari

#85

Post by BinaryIdiot »

bonn1 wrote: post #76
BinaryIdiot wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> BUT: I doubt this pointer event thing is a good example for their reluctance because it's really just a nice-to-have feature for the Surface and the Note series which is for my taste a too small target to justify a standard. This is inaccurate. The pointer events standard allows you to avoid the 300ms delay mobile / touch screen browsers have and is useful across all devices. Without it you have to continue using h…

This is inaccurate. Nowadays, the 300ms goes already away if you set the meta viewport tag with width=device-width etc [1] [1] http://updates.html5rocks.com/2013/12/300ms-tap-delay-gone-a...

That is still pretty new and not all browsers support it; pointer events is a better solution to this problem.

Re: Tired of Safari

#86

Post by riquito »

ebbv wrote: post #51

I was really on board with this article until I got to this: > Although he is right in a literal sense, I do not think we should exaggerate the problem. Clueless web devs will be clueless (and they’re mostly blinded by iFever anyway) So the author is saying that most clueless devs are rabid Apple fans? This is so ridiculous to the point of doing nothing but making the author look bad. Yes, Apple is behaving badly wit…

You missed the context

> creating a second bunch of events to do essentially the same as touch events would put undue pressure on web developers, since they would now have to code to two standards

He's talking about the fact that the devs that have problems with this are "clueless" and will be saved by someone else that does the hard part for them (write a unified interface)

Re: Tired of Safari

#87

Post by bonn1 »

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #85
bonn1 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is inaccurate. Nowadays, the 300ms goes already away if you set the meta viewport tag with width=device-width etc [1] [1] http://updates.html5rocks.com/2013/12/300ms-tap-delay-gone-a...

That is still pretty new and not all browsers support it; pointer events is a better solution to this problem.

Chrome on Android and Safari on iOS support it for more than a year now => 93% of the market

Re: Tired of Safari

#88

Post by munsoji »

As a developer who spent the last few months trying to get a website with touch events to work on the surface 3, I need to get this off my chest.

Microsoft, make up your mind. Do you want a browser that websites 'just work' in or do you want to keep implementing broken standards and forcing other browsers to adopt them? Pick one and don't try to find some weird middle ground where you implement webkit touch events on ie11 mobile but not desktop even though you want us to treat them as the same browser. I'm also looking at you, pointermove events that don't ever give you x and y values other than 0. You tell us you want us to do feature detection instead of browser detection, but how am I supposed to do that when window.pointerEnabled is true for all instances of ie11 even though I don't want to register touch events when I know the user is using a mouse? Before you respond with "you should just be listening for pointer events and not worry about type", you've just asked me to make my site incompatible with every other browser on the market instead of making it slower on ie11 by registering lots of unnecessary event listeners.

Microsoft, it's over. I'm moving on, and don't try to pretend like you can change with project spartan.

Re: Tired of Safari

#89

Post by Eric_WVGG »

falcolas wrote: post #34
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple only has finite resources, too. I doubt WKWebView is neglected, they may just be focussing on fixing something else.

> Apple only has finite resources, too. Apple's finite is larger than every other company out there (to quote an article from earlier this week). I'm pretty sure that any issues Safari is encountering is not due to Apple reaching a "finite" limit of any kind. EDIT: Many of your responses posit Apple as some kind of underdog, struggling to make it in this industry. Given Apple's size and talent, this viewpoint is all…

Depends on your definition of "size." I can find the reference, but I believe Apple has under a third as many developers as Microsoft, and certainly fewer than Google.

While they have money, their pay scale isn't famous for being extravagant. People work there mostly for prestige, but you can get money and prestige working for a startup.

Cook has said publicly that their biggest challenge is talent retention. They're obviously short-handed on OS releases, and willing to reallocate when necessary. So it is not surprising to me at all (but deeply disappointing) that Safari improvements would take a backseat.

Re: Tired of Safari

#90

Post by JoeAltmaier »

munsoji wrote: post #88

As a developer who spent the last few months trying to get a website with touch events to work on the surface 3, I need to get this off my chest. Microsoft, make up your mind. Do you want a browser that websites 'just work' in or do you want to keep implementing broken standards and forcing other browsers to adopt them? Pick one and don't try to find some weird middle ground where you implement webkit touch events on…

A bug, and an extra event listener? That's enough to drive you mad? Sorry, that seems pretty mild. I understand getting wound up after spending too much time figuring out an issue. Maybe walk away from it for an hour, get a cup of something, vent on HN. Oh! That's what you're doing.
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