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Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

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Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#241

Post by emcrazyone »

gutnor wrote: post #208
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're one of the companies giving H1-B a bad name by abusing it for cheap labor and taking money out of the foreigner's pockets then?

Presumably he also offers the applicant some sort of stability ? Without a middleman, the H1B holder is very tied to its employer and has a difficult time changing job or bouncing back after being laid off. A middleman could smooth that out, by keeping the employee a bit longer on the payroll until they find another contract. I know people using those kind of services in the UK. Also if you are a permanent employee w…

very true. I offer a lot of benefits over other similar companies. Many times I am involved in moving a contract because I will give more of the bill rate.

I also offer a family package. You would not believe how many H1Bs I get that want to leave their L1 status because they want to move for various reasons. Marriage being the one I get the most.

When a contract ends, I will put H1Bs on internal work for as long as I can but the liquidity of this area is such that I hardly go past a month or two for any given candidate.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#242

Post by emcrazyone »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #166
emcrazyone wrote: post #107

I own a company that specializes in hiring H1Bs and placing them into contract roles. The data doesn't look very accurate. For one thing, this data doesn't appear to represent what companies pay. I usually get bill rates up around $100/hr to $150/hr depending on skill and location. Like New York has higher cost of living than Michigan so I can often pull a higher bill rate. The payout to the H1B is works out to be $6…

So you're one of the companies giving H1-B a bad name by abusing it for cheap labor and taking money out of the foreigner's pockets then?

maybe. I like to think we suck less than other H1Bs by providing more perks. It's a dog-eat-dog world my friend and in the US, you have a choice. If you don't like it, stay in your native land then is all I can say.

Don't blame us for leveraging what is legal and allowed by economics. I do this part time through an entity I setup with a partner who is from India. He recently returned to India so we could open a site there where we can off shore work. Pumping work into those areas seems like a good thing to me. In addition, the Indian government gives free land if we open offices and/or buy buildings there too.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#243

Post by balls187 »

jacalata wrote: post #209
balls187 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Depends on pay. For 75k - yeah, hard. Most positions don't list salary. From my experience, it's not a problem getting candidates to accept offers, but instead get qualified candidates to extend offers to. If there aren't enough engineers with skill X, and Y years experience, willing to work for pay Z, we need to adjust one of those 4 levers.

I have personally turned down offers in Seattle for being too low, as have other engineers I know. These days I would have to be very excited about a position to bother responding if it didn't list salary, because my assumption is that it's too low to list - so "we don't list the salary" is not necessarily the same as "we know that our salary isn't what's limiting our applicant pool".

Interesting experience.

I assume if no salary is listed, they are paying "market rate."

For me, I've learned how to negotiate effectively, and as such, can get the compensation that I want.

It's not a skill that a lot of people have, so having a salary listing makes it easier.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#244

Post by balls187 »

aceperry wrote: post #203
balls187 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Depends on pay. For 75k - yeah, hard. Most positions don't list salary. From my experience, it's not a problem getting candidates to accept offers, but instead get qualified candidates to extend offers to. If there aren't enough engineers with skill X, and Y years experience, willing to work for pay Z, we need to adjust one of those 4 levers.

"willing to work for pay Z" Is 'Z' a low number compared to the average employee? If that is, maybe that's the problem?

Z isn't a low number.

When I do basic salary surveys, companies in Seattle appear to be paying market rate. Early stage, and pre-funded startups typically don't, but most other companies do.

The salaries don't compare to Bay Area salaries (but they are up there), but that is because our housing options are much more affordable.

The feeling I get is: Bay Area engineers don't want to move to Seattle, and Seattle engineers don't want to move to Bay Area, unless the comp is significantly above market.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#245

Post by grecy »

swatow wrote: post #213
grecy wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To call oneself an engineer without having had the common/basic education in various topics like calculus, linear algebra or statistics is at best misleading, since an accredited engineering program would have provided exposure to such topics. That was my point entirely. I did study all of those things, my degree was under the faculty of Engineering, and the engineers institute of Australia agreed that I do meet th…

But why would a person need formal accreditation of they felt that they did possess the required background (assuming it was legal, which it is in Australia and the US). You are trying to impose the standards of the people who granted you that degree, on everyone else. But it's not justified. To an employer, your accreditation counts for almost nothing when comparing otherwise similar degrees (e.g. a CS degree). And…

> To an employer, your accreditation counts for almost nothing when comparing otherwise similar degrees (e.g. a CS degree)

You obviously have no understanding of the different between a CS degree and a Software Engineering Degreee. For starters, mine was a full year longer than regular CS. I did engineering Math the entire time with the other Engineers, and I did courses like digital electric design and digital signal image processing that the CS'ers didn't.

It's like a CS degree on steroids.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#246

Post by balls187 »

aceperry wrote: post #212
balls187 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From what I understand, the body shops that import most of the H1B workers don't source the high quality employees that employers are demanding here. Have data to back up that statement?

Just my friends who are engineering managers. They manage teams here and overseas in China and India. Their views are, overall, the engineers from overseas are of lower quality than the engineers here. But they cost less especially overseas, they can hire 2-3 times as many engineers as over here.

> Their views are, overall, the engineers from overseas are of lower quality than the engineers here.

That is the perception.

The reality is that there are a number of top engineers from overseas, and they are compensated very well. What India and China are able to do is produce a lot more average quality engineers. Indian and Chinese average engineers are on par with average engineers in the US.

There just happens to be a lot more average quality engineers from overseas then there are in the US. US companies have figured out ways to work with overseas shops that employ average engineers because the cost basis is worth it (1/6 the cost).

With programs like Code Fellows and other coding bootcamps, you're going to see an increase of mediocre American engineers, but at a much higher cost.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#247

Post by tjl »

swatow wrote: post #233
tjl wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were definitely a number in both the practice law and ethics exam and the official exam that I took. I can't recall them off-hand, though. You can see the Code of Ethics for Professional Engineers Ontario in the actual law. http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900... See section 77. Generally, it often revolves around 77.2.i, "A practitioner shall, regard the practitioner’s duty to public we…

In my post I asked for situations that these courses would enable a person to deal with significantly better. I agree that a person could be placed in a situation where they were asked to do something against the public welfare. But I don't see how reading this rule in a course would actually help the person making the decision. For example, I've been in situations where security issues came up. Like most real life m…

How much philosophy do you know? Much of the material deals with different value systems and applying those value systems to different problems. So, you have a complex ethical problem (which many are) and evaluating the problem in the view of the different value systems as well as the code of ethics. So, decisions about security of systems is certainly one of those situations.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#248

Post by swatow »

tjl wrote: post #247
swatow wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my post I asked for situations that these courses would enable a person to deal with significantly better. I agree that a person could be placed in a situation where they were asked to do something against the public welfare. But I don't see how reading this rule in a course would actually help the person making the decision. For example, I've been in situations where security issues came up. Like most real life m…

How much philosophy do you know? Much of the material deals with different value systems and applying those value systems to different problems. So, you have a complex ethical problem (which many are) and evaluating the problem in the view of the different value systems as well as the code of ethics. So, decisions about security of systems is certainly one of those situations.

Let's suppose I knew no philosophy. How does this concretely effect how I would make a particular decision? Can you be specific?

If I were designing human medical trials, then I agree that a course in ethics would be in order. But all aspects of life involve ethical choices, and I don't think that you need to be an expert in philosophy to make the right choices.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#249

Post by swatow »

grecy wrote: post #245
swatow wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why would a person need formal accreditation of they felt that they did possess the required background (assuming it was legal, which it is in Australia and the US). You are trying to impose the standards of the people who granted you that degree, on everyone else. But it's not justified. To an employer, your accreditation counts for almost nothing when comparing otherwise similar degrees (e.g. a CS degree). And…

> To an employer, your accreditation counts for almost nothing when comparing otherwise similar degrees (e.g. a CS degree) You obviously have no understanding of the different between a CS degree and a Software Engineering Degreee. For starters, mine was a full year longer than regular CS. I did engineering Math the entire time with the other Engineers, and I did courses like digital electric design and digital signa…

You obviously have no understanding that the world is much bigger than the context where you are comparing a particular Software Engineering degree with other CS degrees. When compared across the whole world, CS and Software Engineering are basically synonyms. If anything Software Engineering is less technical.

And you also haven't explained why a slightly greater focus on traditional engineering/math is relevant to employers.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#250

Post by tjl »

swatow wrote: post #248
tjl wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much philosophy do you know? Much of the material deals with different value systems and applying those value systems to different problems. So, you have a complex ethical problem (which many are) and evaluating the problem in the view of the different value systems as well as the code of ethics. So, decisions about security of systems is certainly one of those situations.

Let's suppose I knew no philosophy. How does this concretely effect how I would make a particular decision? Can you be specific? If I were designing human medical trials, then I agree that a course in ethics would be in order. But all aspects of life involve ethical choices, and I don't think that you need to be an expert in philosophy to make the right choices.

Understanding ethics can help in making the right choice in a complex situation. For instance, if you go with act utilitarianism, you choose the action which maximizes a positive effect. If you believe in rule utilitarianism, you use the principle of utility (maximizing a positive effect) to set rules to generally abide by such as keeping one's promise. But, there could be situations where following the rule gives rise to a negative effect. This is similar but different to determining rightness by examining the act itself. Then there's virtue ethics such as those of Socrates and Aristotle. There's also the role ethics of Confucius.

So, it's often good to examine a complex situation from the viewpoint of multiple ethical systems and make a decision based on that. That's what courses in ethics do. They teach various systems and present situations to examine.

A lot of people might go with consequentialism, which is basically, "The end justifies the means." Utilitarianism is essentially a subset of this.

So, yes you have some ethical system that you follow, but if you're only looking at a situation from that viewpoint, you might miss out on an alternative course of action.

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