Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

swizec.github.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 250 posts

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#231

Post by tjl »

swatow wrote: post #214
tjl wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you have to take a course on ethics? What about software and society? In Canada, in order to get accreditation as an engineering program (including software engineering) there's a set of requirements to be taught. One is a course on technology's impact on society. Also, in Ontario in order to get professionally licensed as an engineer (which is required before you can call yourself an engineer, legally) one has t…

Can you give an example of an ethical problem that might be faced by a software engineer, that is covered by these courses, and that these courses would enable a person to deal with significantly better.

There were definitely a number in both the practice law and ethics exam and the official exam that I took. I can't recall them off-hand, though. You can see the Code of Ethics for Professional Engineers Ontario in the actual law.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900...

See section 77. Generally, it often revolves around 77.2.i,

"A practitioner shall, regard the practitioner’s duty to public welfare as paramount"

One could see a conflict come up between the company's and the public's interest. For example, you get asked to write the code in a way that takes less time, but could expose the client's data to hackers.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#232

Post by swatow »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #200
balls187 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC, the US believe is similar, however the title engineer can be bestowed by a company to an employee while they are working for the company.

No. There are no real restrictions on the title of engineer in the US. In some industries (health, civil eng.) you need a PE for public safety reasons but it is rare for engineers to have them in general. A PE can be hard to get in many places because you need at least one coworker with a PE who can vouch for your work. Without one it is an impossibility. A system like Canada's would be nice to have to eliminate the…

>A system like Canada's would be nice to have to eliminate the cheapening of the title.

Are the egos of the "real" engineers really worth the additional burden of this regulation? At best, it stops people using a word that was coveted by others. At worst it means more regulatory hoops to jump through when there was no problem in the first place.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#233

Post by swatow »

tjl wrote: post #231
swatow wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example of an ethical problem that might be faced by a software engineer, that is covered by these courses, and that these courses would enable a person to deal with significantly better.

There were definitely a number in both the practice law and ethics exam and the official exam that I took. I can't recall them off-hand, though. You can see the Code of Ethics for Professional Engineers Ontario in the actual law. http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900... See section 77. Generally, it often revolves around 77.2.i, "A practitioner shall, regard the practitioner’s duty to public we…

In my post I asked for situations that these courses would enable a person to deal with significantly better.

I agree that a person could be placed in a situation where they were asked to do something against the public welfare. But I don't see how reading this rule in a course would actually help the person making the decision.

For example, I've been in situations where security issues came up. Like most real life matters, it was a matter of judgement, and the tradeoffs were complex. But I went above and beyond what was expected, to do things the best way possible. I did it because I thought it was the right thing to do, and because I take pride in my work. But I didn't need to take a course or get a certificate to know this.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#234

Post by istvan__ »

justizin wrote: post #169
JeremyMorgan wrote: post #35

I'm wondering where the data came from and how accurate it it is. "In 2012 the Oregon software industry gave jobs to 38 foreign software engineers." Ok so here I am assuming you mean 38 new H1B engineers were hired in 2012. There is no way that could be true, I nearly hired and processed that many H1Bs personally in 2012. I was working with several others with similar or higher numbers. And that's just one company in…

You nearly hired and processed 38 H1-Bs personally in 2012? How many American Citizens - children of previous immigrants, or of native americans - did you fucking hire?

It is hard to find the latter because the former almost killed them all. How about just hiring good people?

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#235

Post by ulfw »

hibikir wrote: post #228
luuio wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>foreign workers will typically have lower wages >they have less freedom to switch companies Is there some data/documentation to back this up? As far as I know, an H1B VISA does not tie you to a specific company.

As a former H1-B, I might be able to help. You can change jobs as an H1-B: In fact, I did once, when my first employer was doing constant rounds of layoffs, and I got antsy. It's not easy, as many companies won't sponsor H1-Bs at all, but the real kicker is that most H1-Bs, me included, wanted to stay longer than the 6 year maximum. We see H1-B as the one way to stay permanently. First you get an H1-B, and maybe in t…

> get paid real market rates vs > Now, 3 years later, I make more than double what I made then, in the same town, because now I can actually negotiate without a sword over my head

Yea I think you are contradicting yourself here.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#236

Post by iagooar »

What are the typical working conditions in the US tech sector? I mean vacation days, hours / week, flexible working hours, other perks and benefits?

What would be the most typical conditions? What are the conditions an American software engineer would say: "I'm not accepting to work for less than this"?

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#237

Post by Kiro »

JeremyMorgan wrote: post #35

I'm wondering where the data came from and how accurate it it is. "In 2012 the Oregon software industry gave jobs to 38 foreign software engineers." Ok so here I am assuming you mean 38 new H1B engineers were hired in 2012. There is no way that could be true, I nearly hired and processed that many H1Bs personally in 2012. I was working with several others with similar or higher numbers. And that's just one company in…

Where do you work?

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#238

Post by thaumasiotes »

aioprisan wrote: post #225
thaumasiotes wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your company had no salespeople, would the developers still have a job?

It's a classic chicken and egg question. In software development, do you need the engineer first, to build the product, that can then be sold even further.

I think it's just that the wrong metaphor is being used. Don't think "as the fundamental basis of the company, the developers are keeping everyone else employed"... think "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts". You can start with either, but you won't get anywhere without both.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#239

Post by Gurkenmaster »

Swizec wrote: post #11
mh- wrote: post #6

OP: the 'administrator' button doesn't load new data, leaves previously rendered data in place.

That's an unfortunate result of some brackets having zero data and my code not handling that edge case well :( Thanks for letting me know!

The bars are tiny when I select architect/consultant/manager in Arizona.

Re: Show HN: A histogram of salaries given to H1B workers in the software industry

#240

Post by wyclif »

klipt wrote: post #178
ForHackernews wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's very very very hard to find good people. Any time somebody says this, I always mentally add "...at the wage I want to pay." It is not hard to find good people if you offered a million dollar salary. If there were a legitimate labor shortage, wages would be skyrocketing. Instead, we get employers whining and agitating for increasing the H1B quota.

Of course, a company can only reasonably offer a million dollar salary if that hire will increase their revenue by over a million. I'm guessing that's a pretty rare hire.

He's being hyperbolic, but his point stands. Fact is, there is no talent shortage, there's simply a shortage of startups who understand that you can't nickel and dime engineers or refuse to pay market rates. Whining about it does nothing to solve the problem. David "Pardo" Keppel said it best:

"There's no shortage of smart, hardworking engineers. There's a shortage of smart, hardworking engineers willing to work for very little money."

If you're having trouble hiring, it's probably because you're not paying enough. It turns out that talented people are worth paying a lot for.

Post reply on HN