Texas Hold'em Hand Strength, Visualized • Hacker News Board

Re: Texas Hold'em Hand Strength, Visualized

#61

Post by MichaelGG » Tue, Feb 24, 2015, 3:49 AM UTC

mod wrote: post #54

TimPC wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything that's wrong with poker as a game can be exhibited in the fact that 70-30 is considered a rout. It's slightly better than 2 to 1, you lose almost 1/3rd of the time. AQ vs KK preflop is roughly like leading 1-0 in a baseball game.

What I think you're saying is "everything that's wrong with poker" is exactly what I find makes poker great. So much incomplete information combined with luck obscures the best strategy. If it weren't for these traits, it's likely poker would have been relegated to the likes of checkers by now. Solved and not fun for competent players. The luck keeps people coming back. Anyway, I can't agree with what you're saying,…

Go does not have any luck, but it's an incredibly elegant and deep game with basically 3 rules. Computers still don't win against the top pros. (But that'll probably change over the next 5-10 years.)

So you don't need luck to make it an attractive spectator sport. But I suppose it might be very different from poker if there wasn't luck involved.

Re: Texas Hold'em Hand Strength, Visualized

#62

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 24, 2015, 6:11 AM UTC

avalaunch wrote: post #59

mod wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can buy huge databases from other players, yes. They're full data sets, not "tainted," and have far more hands than have ever been played in the WSOP. It's considered bad form in the poker world, and generally against site TOS, if you're a player using the data to have a read on a player before you've ever played him. If you're just doing research, nobody cares at all. They might even give you the datasets, if th…

Unless I've misunderstood you, it's really not considered bad form at all. It's considered pretty standard amongst professional poker players that most everyone (at least the professionals) are all using some form of HUD (heads-up display) that will overlay stats next to each opponent's name, detailing all sorts of useful information about the player's tendencies. It's almost mandatory to use a HUD if you like to mul…

[deleted]

Re: Texas Hold'em Hand Strength, Visualized

#63

Post by ChuckMcM » Tue, Feb 24, 2015, 6:45 AM UTC

I enjoyed this analysis, I went through something similar when designing a bridge hand 'strength' estimator as part of an automated bidding program. I'm going to have to go back and see if I can borrow some of these ideas :-)

Re: Texas Hold'em Hand Strength, Visualized

#64

Post by duncanawoods » Tue, Feb 24, 2015, 8:18 AM UTC

avalaunch wrote: post #59

mod wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can buy huge databases from other players, yes. They're full data sets, not "tainted," and have far more hands than have ever been played in the WSOP. It's considered bad form in the poker world, and generally against site TOS, if you're a player using the data to have a read on a player before you've ever played him. If you're just doing research, nobody cares at all. They might even give you the datasets, if th…

Unless I've misunderstood you, it's really not considered bad form at all. It's considered pretty standard amongst professional poker players that most everyone (at least the professionals) are all using some form of HUD (heads-up display) that will overlay stats next to each opponent's name, detailing all sorts of useful information about the player's tendencies. It's almost mandatory to use a HUD if you like to mul…

Collecting and mining hands you play\see is fine but its the buying and selling of other people's datasets that is bad form / banned. In the small circles of nose-bleed games, it is resembles collusion when a team shares data to undermine a single target across a set of games.

Re: Texas Hold'em Hand Strength, Visualized

#65

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 24, 2015, 6:02 PM UTC

mod wrote: post #45

highCs wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are (correct?) preflop odds according to number of players: http://www.natesholdem.com/pre-flop-odds.php And then, what's interesting is that with 2 players ak win at 67% and jj win at 77.5% (ak But at 10 players, ak wins at 20% and jj wins at 19.3% (ak > jj) Illustrating the number of players changes the hand strength

That's still not weighted for how often a player plays a given hand. It assumes the opponent will play every hand equally as often.

[deleted]

Re: Texas Hold'em Hand Strength, Visualized

#66

Post by avalaunch » Tue, Feb 24, 2015, 7:00 PM UTC

duncanawoods wrote: post #64

avalaunch wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I've misunderstood you, it's really not considered bad form at all. It's considered pretty standard amongst professional poker players that most everyone (at least the professionals) are all using some form of HUD (heads-up display) that will overlay stats next to each opponent's name, detailing all sorts of useful information about the player's tendencies. It's almost mandatory to use a HUD if you like to mul…

Collecting and mining hands you play\see is fine but its the buying and selling of other people's datasets that is bad form / banned. In the small circles of nose-bleed games, it is resembles collusion when a team shares data to undermine a single target across a set of games.

It's still pretty standard to mine hands that you didn't personally participate in. Lots of players mine nonstop. You're right that you're probably crossing the line when you buy/share other people's datasets, as you'll get information that your opponent can't possibly get without also sharing/buying datasets. That being said, of the nose-bleed players I personally knew it was still the norm to share data with your friends. I think at that level you just have to assume that all of your previously played hands are visible to all your opponents and adjust accordingly.

Re: Texas Hold'em Hand Strength, Visualized

#67

Post by mod » Tue, Feb 24, 2015, 9:35 PM UTC

thret wrote: post #57

mod wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be surprised to hear that 95% of poker players do not consider JT mediocre. (I'm not among the 95%!)

In Australia we call JTss the 'Greek flag'. It is a very powerful hand in the Manila variant of poker - which is popular with Greeks - and thus extremely popular in holdem also. Note that every two card straight it makes is the nuts.

Note that it's rarely worth playing in a raised NLHE pot.

I know it's good when it's good, but it can be easy to read, it splits a lot of the pots because the board goes four paint or whatever, it gets tricked into dumping money with top pair no kicker, etc.

Plenty of guys are flatting two raises OOP and hoping to hit a flop and that's a recipe for dumping chips.

It's a great hand to play anytime 76s would be a great hand.

Re: Texas Hold'em Hand Strength, Visualized

#68

Post by TimPC » Wed, Feb 25, 2015, 3:56 AM UTC

mod wrote: post #54

TimPC wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything that's wrong with poker as a game can be exhibited in the fact that 70-30 is considered a rout. It's slightly better than 2 to 1, you lose almost 1/3rd of the time. AQ vs KK preflop is roughly like leading 1-0 in a baseball game.

What I think you're saying is "everything that's wrong with poker" is exactly what I find makes poker great. So much incomplete information combined with luck obscures the best strategy. If it weren't for these traits, it's likely poker would have been relegated to the likes of checkers by now. Solved and not fun for competent players. The luck keeps people coming back. Anyway, I can't agree with what you're saying,…

Mostly I mean that people think it's absolutely unbelievable that 70-30 gets beat and whine like it was an actual rout when it happens, then tell stories about it for years.