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Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

nytimes.com

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Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#41

Post by raldi »

michaelochurch wrote: post #38
pen2l wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people who created Evan Spiegel should be held responsible if he creates a company with a discriminatory culture. You know that that's not happening though, right? I mean, the idea is so far-fetched and unrealistic that it's comical. The first step would be to merely hold Spiegel responsible for what he did: aaaand nothing is happening. Nothing will ever happen. But you want to go two steps ahead and hold inves…

But you want to go two steps ahead and hold investors responsible for Spiegel's behavior? That's laughably naive. Oh, it probably is. Someone has to propose radical ideas or moderate changes never happen. Radicalism is the role I've had to take on these issues, for a variety of reasons not worth getting into. To be honest, I'm nearly burnt out on the anti-VC radicalism. And my actual views are fairly moderate, not th…

> Whoa. Can you say who? I've never heard of this. That is... disgusting and horrifying.

https://www.reddit.com/user/Here_Comes_The_King

P.S. I was so tempted to just say jedberg.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#42

Post by mahranch »

rdl wrote: post #28
tmpacct1 wrote: post #9

I founded a KP backed company during those years. I'm not longer involved, so I don't have a stake in this. Likewise, I don't have any specific knowledge of the events. At the partners' meeting and other interactions, Pao seemed uninterested and out of place. Their culture seemed to be intense, friendly, joking debate. I don't think it's a gender thing, as I remember Meeker and Lee being incredibly helpful. This whol…

I've Ellen Pao her in other contexts and found her incredibly engaged and supportive, so it was probably specific to crap going on at KPCB. She is one of the best VCs I've ever interacted with; it sounds like she had a negative situation at KPCB (which hopefully the trial will resolve), but it absolutely isn't about her competence and intelligence otherwise. By all accounts she's also doing very well as an operator a…

> By all accounts she's also doing very well as an operator at Reddit.

That's completely the opposite of what the linked article claims. It says that a reddit employee sent the defense a letter asking to subpena reddit employees regarding conflicts with Ellen Pao.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#44

Post by pen2l »

michaelochurch wrote: post #38
pen2l wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people who created Evan Spiegel should be held responsible if he creates a company with a discriminatory culture. You know that that's not happening though, right? I mean, the idea is so far-fetched and unrealistic that it's comical. The first step would be to merely hold Spiegel responsible for what he did: aaaand nothing is happening. Nothing will ever happen. But you want to go two steps ahead and hold inves…

But you want to go two steps ahead and hold investors responsible for Spiegel's behavior? That's laughably naive. Oh, it probably is. Someone has to propose radical ideas or moderate changes never happen. Radicalism is the role I've had to take on these issues, for a variety of reasons not worth getting into. To be honest, I'm nearly burnt out on the anti-VC radicalism. And my actual views are fairly moderate, not th…

Small meta-comment: it's very annoying to see your comments consistently downvoted (even when you're not playing your shtick).

> Oh, it probably is. Someone has to propose radical ideas or moderate changes never happen. Radicalism is the role I've had to take on these issues, for a variety of reasons not worth getting into.

So, I appreciate your line of reasoning here, but I'm not sure if it's the most effective one. In fact, I think your approach is getting you the exact opposite result of what you want. The thing is, playing a radical is extremely hard, hard especially when you aren't even that genuinely radical. Stallman plays a radical superbly, and I think that really is because he genuinely believes everything he says. I fear that when you say radical things, they can be served as arsenal for the other side, who coopts your arguments as reductio ad absurdum devices for opposite goals.

> Whoa. Can you say who? I've never heard of this. That is... disgusting and horrifying.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080621111652/http://www.rolling... Perhaps the greatest pity is we, and the VC's, including Sam Altman, celebrate him.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#45

Post by mahranch »

graeme wrote: post #5
mahranch wrote: post #3

> An anonymous Reddit employee sent a letter to Kleiner’s legal team, asking them to subpoena Reddit employees “for information regarding conflicts with Ellen Pao.” Wow. I had heard about the case, but didn't know the drama had sprawled over to reddit. All things put aside, including my own biases, if I was reddit's board, I'd get rid of her immediately. It doesn't matter whether if her claims are justified, or even…

Good heavens. You've just levied a harsh accusation against Pao: you called her a toxic presence, and called for her immediate termination. Your only evidence is one letter sent by anonymous employee (assuming the NYT has accurately described the person in question and they were in fact at Reddit). It's very possible the employee just had a grudge against Pao and was trying to complicate things (No CEO will ever avoi…

> Your only evidence is one letter sent by anonymous employee (assuming the NYT has accurately described the person in question and they were in fact at Reddit).

Do you really need more evidence? Your CEO should be a pillar of stability. A rock, a mountain of fortitude. One mistake or "situation" I can understand, but it appears her issues have followed her to reddit. There's clearly and obviously something more going on. Again the point is not one of right or wrong, but who you want heading up your company. And quite frankly, I wouldn't want her anywhere near my properties.

If you have a person who never does anything wrong, but trouble has a way of following them everywhere, would you want that person working for you? Put yourself in the shoes of reddit's board. This isn't about her career, they don't care about her career, her needs or wants, it's about what's best for reddit.

This isn't a fantasy world where ideology wins out, the good guy wins, and pragmatism and compromise are only found it stories... No, this is the real world where you have to weigh the benefits and drawbacks and make extremely hard and difficult decisions.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#46

Post by mahranch »

jgoah wrote: post #30
davidu wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such strong language, and such vitriol. If you really believe this, you need to recognize that sometimes the best people are fleeing a bad situation -- a situation that they were a victim of. I don't really know the details of what happened at KP, but I am not surprised that discrimination (deliberate or otherwise) exists in venture capital. Did it happen to her? I don't know. Will the real truth ever come out? Proba…

His comment history is filled with him being far more rude than is necessary. He's either a troll or an asshole. Sucks that he's here.

Thanks for stalking me instead of taking my comment at face value (I wonder if that's a new, evolving form of the ad hominem logical fallacy).

It's funny, actually. I've never seen so many downvotes flying on hackernews as I have in this thread. Not my comment, this is actually my first downvoted comment on this website in 2 years (which would contradict your claim of me being "a troll"), but watching this thread proves it's a hot button issue for many people.

I'm a "she" by the way. And no, my comment history isn't littered with rude comments. I may speak frankly and honestly which is often confused with being rude, especially to those who are extremely sensitive to such things, but the hard truth should never be considered "rude", it should be welcomed. Warts and all.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#47

Post by mathattack »

mc32 wrote: post #35

So KPCB is retaliating with a civil lawsuit, claiming: >“lacked the ability to lead others, build consensus and be a team player, which is crucial to a successful career as a venture capital senior investing partner.” I won't pretend to know who did or said what, but language such as the above, is so broad as to mean nothing. It's typical HR verbiage used when they want to pressure someone to quit, or get them outrig…

The reality is it's very hard to have objective performance. Salespeople somewhat have it, but even then you don't know the performance of the deals until many years later. You can somewhat come up with it for VCs, but it takes many years to sort out talent vs luck vs good or bad markets. Observing the quality of decisions is by it's nature extremely subjective.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#48

Post by mahranch »

davidu wrote: post #6
mahranch wrote: post #3

> An anonymous Reddit employee sent a letter to Kleiner’s legal team, asking them to subpoena Reddit employees “for information regarding conflicts with Ellen Pao.” Wow. I had heard about the case, but didn't know the drama had sprawled over to reddit. All things put aside, including my own biases, if I was reddit's board, I'd get rid of her immediately. It doesn't matter whether if her claims are justified, or even…

Such strong language, and such vitriol. If you really believe this, you need to recognize that sometimes the best people are fleeing a bad situation -- a situation that they were a victim of. I don't really know the details of what happened at KP, but I am not surprised that discrimination (deliberate or otherwise) exists in venture capital. Did it happen to her? I don't know. Will the real truth ever come out? Proba…

> But you are calling for her termination. For something unrelated to her current job.

I am calling for her termination for something on-going with her current job and related to her old job. Did you not read the article? A Reddit employee asked the defense to subpena more employees because of conflicts at her new job. I highly doubt the employee was "trolling" the defense with his or her request (more than half of reddit's staff is female). There is obviously something of substance there and I think that combined with her prior experience is telling of the toxicity she is bringing with her wherever she goes.

I don't care if she's in the right or wrong, I only care about reddit since it's a website I use every day and have for years. I would not want a CEO with such problems and baggage following them around heading up any company I'm a part of or I enjoy. It's like that one kid in school who always said they hated "drama" yet always found themselves smack-dab in the middle of it. They may have had no part in the drama, but it followed them around. They were a toxic presence and that's exactly what's begun to happen with Ellen Pao according to this article's bit about reddit.

More than that, it's strange that KP hasn't settled. That's something that, if there was actually evidence, even mildly strong "iffy" evidence, they would want to do immediately. They wouldn't let it move to trial. Unless they had evidence which supports their own side of the story. Again, that's largely irrelevant to me. Even if she's 100% correct, I wouldn't want someone with all that baggage heading up my company. CEOs need to be fortitude personified.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#49

Post by mentat »

mahranch wrote: post #45
graeme wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good heavens. You've just levied a harsh accusation against Pao: you called her a toxic presence, and called for her immediate termination. Your only evidence is one letter sent by anonymous employee (assuming the NYT has accurately described the person in question and they were in fact at Reddit). It's very possible the employee just had a grudge against Pao and was trying to complicate things (No CEO will ever avoi…

> Your only evidence is one letter sent by anonymous employee (assuming the NYT has accurately described the person in question and they were in fact at Reddit). Do you really need more evidence? Your CEO should be a pillar of stability. A rock, a mountain of fortitude. One mistake or "situation" I can understand, but it appears her issues have followed her to reddit. There's clearly and obviously something more goin…

You can't possibly be serious. I've had one CEO like that over 20 years. Most CEOs are somewhat less than that and they do at least ok if not great.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#50

Post by alain94040 »

jgoah wrote: post #30
davidu wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such strong language, and such vitriol. If you really believe this, you need to recognize that sometimes the best people are fleeing a bad situation -- a situation that they were a victim of. I don't really know the details of what happened at KP, but I am not surprised that discrimination (deliberate or otherwise) exists in venture capital. Did it happen to her? I don't know. Will the real truth ever come out? Proba…

His comment history is filled with him being far more rude than is necessary. He's either a troll or an asshole. Sucks that he's here.

I had a quick look at her last 50 comments or so, they look fine to me. Can you provide some more specific evidence of your claim?
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