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Why fuel cell cars don't work

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Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#61

Post by sliverstorm »

graphene wrote: post #13
Gravityloss wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excess wind and solar power can be used to generate hydrogen from water.

Unfortunately, there's no efficient process for that. Efficiency of electrolysis (when not using expensive catalysts) is around 50%.

We know that hydrogen has obstacles when it comes to efficiency... but we also know that batteries have obstacles when it comes to chemical environmental friendliness (primarily manufacture and disposal). Has anyone done a comparison of that aspect of environmental impact?

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#62

Post by Symmetry »

graphene wrote: post #13
Gravityloss wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excess wind and solar power can be used to generate hydrogen from water.

Unfortunately, there's no efficient process for that. Efficiency of electrolysis (when not using expensive catalysts) is around 50%.

I seem to recall that synthesizing methane or hydrocarbons from water and atmospheric CO2 isn't that much less efficient than that. Given the efficiency of internal combustion engines versus fuel cells and existing infrastructure you might as well get your carbon neutral transportation that way instead of with hydrogen.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#63

Post by astrocat »

sandworm wrote: post #57

The threat to the car companies is that all-electric cars could dramatically decrease demand. They hope the complexity of fuel cells will keep demand going a few more decades. An all-electric car could have as few as a hundred moving parts. A few motors and connecting rods, some suspension componants, fans and a couple manual controls. You just don't need the thousands of tiny metal bits necessary to keep a gas/diese…

I doubt this is the case. If anything, the reasons you give boil down to: "the core of the car - the moving vehicle bit - will become commodity" and when this happens, cars will become "cars" like phones are now "phones," as in, they're not so much phones anymore as tiny computers that can also make calls. And this will definitely NOT increase their lifetime. If anything, it will decrease it... just like we replace our phones every 2 years.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#64

Post by Gravityloss »

sandstrom wrote: post #17
Gravityloss wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excess wind and solar power can be used to generate hydrogen from water.

I think that with current technology it's more efficient to store that energy in a battery than in the form of hydrogen (hydrogen is just a storage mechanism). But it's a storage mechanism with the huge downside of being available from natural gas, so with widespread use of hydrogen we be equivalent to widespread continuous pumping of huge amounts of CO2 into oceans and the atmosphere. Something which most people con…

Of course it's more efficient to use batteries, these are all entry level arguments. Perhaps I misread the audience.

The infrastructure cost is totally different. Electrolysis and immobile storage of hydrogen is very cheap.

We don't have a lot of places where for a significant portion of time when there is excess power from renewables, but we will, in the future.

Edit: To clarify: if you want to produce say 40% of your yearly energy needs from wind and solar, you have to oversize the production since there are many days they produce very little. That then means there are days when they produce more than is consumed. The excess energy could be used for electrolyzing hydrogen from water.

Note no carbon involved. Also the low efficiency doesn't matter, as the energy is "free". Low cost of energy storage method is much more important in this case.

Any other reasons than "batteries are more efficient" for downvoting?

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#65

Post by thrownaway2424 »

shazzy wrote: post #50
luchs wrote: post #44

There are actually two buses in operation at my university which run on fuel cells: http://www.kit.edu/downloads/Flyer_Wasserstoffbus_EN.pdf They have been in operation since 2013, so they seem to work pretty well.

TFL (Transport for London) have been running hydrogen buses on a route in London since 2011. According to the link they have 8 in total and the entire route is operated with hydrogen buses. http://www.hydrogenlondon.org/projects/london-hydrogen-bus-p...

AC Transit also operates 12 hydrogen fuel cell buses. http://www.actransit.org/environment/the-hyroad/

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#66

Post by semi-extrinsic »

sandstrom wrote: post #17
Gravityloss wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excess wind and solar power can be used to generate hydrogen from water.

I think that with current technology it's more efficient to store that energy in a battery than in the form of hydrogen (hydrogen is just a storage mechanism). But it's a storage mechanism with the huge downside of being available from natural gas, so with widespread use of hydrogen we be equivalent to widespread continuous pumping of huge amounts of CO2 into oceans and the atmosphere. Something which most people con…

Many of the places that work well for solar panels are far away from the people who use electricity. Hydrogen is a good energy storage solution, to the point that eg. Australia and Saudi Arabia are contemplating commercial operations, nicknamed "solar fuels": http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/abe-visit-may-hasten-solar-f...

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#67

Post by marcosdumay »

soperj wrote: post #9
r00fus wrote: post #5

The article deftly steps around the real issue: Fuel Cells are entirely an petroleum industry promotion. The goal is to provide a seemingly credible (but in reality completely unworkable) clean alternative so politicians, car companies and oil companies together can work "towards a clean future" while deep down knowing that it's a stalling tactic to keep the petroleum infrastructure in place. Any fuel cell funding su…

I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. What on earth do the car companies have to get out of it? The big name in the 90s, Ballard, had buy in from a couple of car companies and no oil companies.

Not signing for a conspiracy. But the car companies actions look a lot like they believe that both:

1 - Nobody will buy alternative fueled cars

2 - They must appear to support ecologically friendly energy sources

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#68

Post by toomuchtodo »

astrocat wrote: post #63
sandworm wrote: post #57

The threat to the car companies is that all-electric cars could dramatically decrease demand. They hope the complexity of fuel cells will keep demand going a few more decades. An all-electric car could have as few as a hundred moving parts. A few motors and connecting rods, some suspension componants, fans and a couple manual controls. You just don't need the thousands of tiny metal bits necessary to keep a gas/diese…

I doubt this is the case. If anything, the reasons you give boil down to: "the core of the car - the moving vehicle bit - will become commodity" and when this happens, cars will become "cars" like phones are now "phones," as in, they're not so much phones anymore as tiny computers that can also make calls. And this will definitely NOT increase their lifetime. If anything, it will decrease it... just like we replace o…

You know how you swap the powertrain on a Model S? You pull the motor (~70 lbs) and you drop the battery pack. 10 minutes tops.

Sure, you could argue the interior will wear. Big deal. You'll have interiors you can swap on the power sled (battery + suspension + electric motor). Those sleds should last forever.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#69

Post by greglindahl »

taeric wrote: post #48
soperj wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. What on earth do the car companies have to get out of it? The big name in the 90s, Ballard, had buy in from a couple of car companies and no oil companies.

I would think it is more with leveraging existing infrastructure. It isn't so much that these companies are "in league" with big oil. More that a large portion of the infrastructure they have right now benefits from not needing to be retooled. Consider the costs that companies such as (solely as) Tesla are having to front to get a refueling infrastructure in place to make their cars considerable.

Almost all Tesla car charging occurs in owners' garages, where Tesla doesn't have to front anything. Tesla's supercharger network is funded by a $2,000 addition to each luxury car that they sell. Both kinds of chargers use a lot of pre-existing electricity infrastructure.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#70

Post by Htsthbjig »

mhurron wrote: post #38
Htsthbjig wrote: post #33

I believe fuel cells will work when they can use methane, butane or propane cheaply. I already use an NGV(natural gas) car. Using fuel cells means you can get 60%-70% efficiency instead of 40% of thermal engines because you don't have Carnot't limit. Also, with natural gas lots of people will be able to charge on their home. Lots of people have natural gas pipelines in their houses in Europe. Today you can use this f…

Isn't using any hydrocarbon going to give you the issue with pollution that gasoline does? You're not really solving any problems simply changing what hydrocarbon you choose to burn.

"You're not really solving any problems simply changing what hydrocarbon you choose to burn."

You are solving lots of problems:

1-Lots of countries in the world have natural gas(or coal), but very few have oil.Just not depending on the petrodollar is a big plus as it would made countries more self reliant.

2-Reserves of natural gas are way higher than of oil.

3-If efficiency doubles, you need to spend half of it.

4-You can synthesize it artificially if you have C02, water, and energy.

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