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Why fuel cell cars don't work

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Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#41

Post by [deleted] »

gambiting wrote: post #32
hansjorg wrote: post #19

Toyota, which is the largest car manufacturer by volume, have stated repeatedly that they are betting on hydrogen fuel cells rather than batteries. Given their track record with hybrids, one would think that they know their battery technology. None of the anti-hydrogen fuel cell articles that have popped up here lately have mentioned this. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the Toyota strategy from this po…

I am really really curious how anyone is trying to solve the problem of Hydrogen leaking out of literally any container you could put it into. Smallest molecule+huge pressure = leaks out of pure lead canisters. When Mercedes made their Hydrogen-powered concept car they said the whole tank would evaporate naturally within 3 weeks if I remember correctly? As hydrogen forms an explosive mixture with air, I cannot see th…

[deleted]

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#43

Post by shazzy »

gambiting wrote: post #32
hansjorg wrote: post #19

Toyota, which is the largest car manufacturer by volume, have stated repeatedly that they are betting on hydrogen fuel cells rather than batteries. Given their track record with hybrids, one would think that they know their battery technology. None of the anti-hydrogen fuel cell articles that have popped up here lately have mentioned this. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the Toyota strategy from this po…

I am really really curious how anyone is trying to solve the problem of Hydrogen leaking out of literally any container you could put it into. Smallest molecule+huge pressure = leaks out of pure lead canisters. When Mercedes made their Hydrogen-powered concept car they said the whole tank would evaporate naturally within 3 weeks if I remember correctly? As hydrogen forms an explosive mixture with air, I cannot see th…

I remember reading about how researchers were trying to store hydrogen in what are (essentially) nano-scale plastic beads.

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/nanobeads-could-store-liqu...

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#45

Post by parsnips »

krschultz wrote: post #40
parsnips wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in other words, subways are solutions in search of a problem.

No, subways are very appropriate in certain situations. It wouldn't make sense to build an 8 lane highway to connect two towns in the backwoods of Alaska, but that doesn't mean 8 lane highways are a solution in search of a problem.

The point was I'm addressing is this idea that "sprawl" is somehow the problem that needs curing.

It reminds me of a young child asking:

"If people are so poor in ___________ why don't they move to _______?"

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#46

Post by murbard2 »

Htsthbjig wrote: post #33

I believe fuel cells will work when they can use methane, butane or propane cheaply. I already use an NGV(natural gas) car. Using fuel cells means you can get 60%-70% efficiency instead of 40% of thermal engines because you don't have Carnot't limit. Also, with natural gas lots of people will be able to charge on their home. Lots of people have natural gas pipelines in their houses in Europe. Today you can use this f…

Make that methanol. It can be produced very cheaply from natural gas, it's easier to store and distribute, and you can even use it in existing casr with a fairly cheap conversion.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#48

Post by taeric »

soperj wrote: post #9
r00fus wrote: post #5

The article deftly steps around the real issue: Fuel Cells are entirely an petroleum industry promotion. The goal is to provide a seemingly credible (but in reality completely unworkable) clean alternative so politicians, car companies and oil companies together can work "towards a clean future" while deep down knowing that it's a stalling tactic to keep the petroleum infrastructure in place. Any fuel cell funding su…

I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. What on earth do the car companies have to get out of it? The big name in the 90s, Ballard, had buy in from a couple of car companies and no oil companies.

I would think it is more with leveraging existing infrastructure. It isn't so much that these companies are "in league" with big oil. More that a large portion of the infrastructure they have right now benefits from not needing to be retooled.

Consider the costs that companies such as (solely as) Tesla are having to front to get a refueling infrastructure in place to make their cars considerable.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#49

Post by Animats »

hansjorg wrote: post #19

Toyota, which is the largest car manufacturer by volume, have stated repeatedly that they are betting on hydrogen fuel cells rather than batteries. Given their track record with hybrids, one would think that they know their battery technology. None of the anti-hydrogen fuel cell articles that have popped up here lately have mentioned this. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the Toyota strategy from this po…

Toyota's interest is surprising. I saw that recently, and was amazed. I thought everyone had given up on hydrogen as an auto fuel, now that batteries were good enough for electric cars.

Hydrogen is not itself a source of energy. It has to be made from something. Electrolysis of water is more wasteful of energy than putting the same electricity into a battery. Hydrogen from natural gas is possible, but why not just run vehicles on natural gas? That works fine; some bus and truck fleets run on natural gas.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#50

Post by shazzy »

luchs wrote: post #44

There are actually two buses in operation at my university which run on fuel cells: http://www.kit.edu/downloads/Flyer_Wasserstoffbus_EN.pdf They have been in operation since 2013, so they seem to work pretty well.

TFL (Transport for London) have been running hydrogen buses on a route in London since 2011. According to the link they have 8 in total and the entire route is operated with hydrogen buses.

http://www.hydrogenlondon.org/projects/london-hydrogen-bus-p...

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