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Why fuel cell cars don't work

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Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#51

Post by hnnewguy »

krschultz wrote: post #35
soperj wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. What on earth do the car companies have to get out of it? The big name in the 90s, Ballard, had buy in from a couple of car companies and no oil companies.

Don't picture a bunch of oil tycoons with monocles sitting in back rooms smoking cigars with Ford execs laughing about how they are going to crush Tesla. It's much more subtle than that. I grew up around cars. My dad races them as his hobby. We restored a few, and spent plenty of time wrenching on a car together. It was one of the highlights of my childhood. It's still one of the things we often talk about when we se…

>I can imagine that makes their position less defendable.

What you've written I agree with, but it's a long way off from the OP's conspiracy. Cars have been around a long time, so the affinity is natural result all that history.

It will change. I'm also a "car guy". I recently entered into four-year lease on a new vehicle, and on the drive home I told my significant other it's probable that this will be the last ICE we ever buy (and perhaps the last car that we actually drive off the lot ourselves). It's funny to think about.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#52

Post by wumpus »

hansjorg wrote: post #19

Toyota, which is the largest car manufacturer by volume, have stated repeatedly that they are betting on hydrogen fuel cells rather than batteries. Given their track record with hybrids, one would think that they know their battery technology. None of the anti-hydrogen fuel cell articles that have popped up here lately have mentioned this. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the Toyota strategy from this po…

He was too nice to go there: Toyota's announced fuel cell car is expensive and has very poor performance. The fundamental problem is that high power fuel cells are very expensive, linear power with cost. And that expense doesn't seem to be changing quickly.

I'd like to believe that Toyota is making rational choices based on their experience with hybrids. But I'm having a hard time believing that.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#53

Post by cmdrfred »

shazzy wrote: post #43
gambiting wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am really really curious how anyone is trying to solve the problem of Hydrogen leaking out of literally any container you could put it into. Smallest molecule+huge pressure = leaks out of pure lead canisters. When Mercedes made their Hydrogen-powered concept car they said the whole tank would evaporate naturally within 3 weeks if I remember correctly? As hydrogen forms an explosive mixture with air, I cannot see th…

I remember reading about how researchers were trying to store hydrogen in what are (essentially) nano-scale plastic beads. http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/nanobeads-could-store-liqu...

I wonder if that will negate the 'clean' aspect of the whole deal.

http://www.npr.org/2014/05/21/313157701/why-those-tiny-micro...

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#54

Post by korethr »

mhurron wrote: post #38
Htsthbjig wrote: post #33

I believe fuel cells will work when they can use methane, butane or propane cheaply. I already use an NGV(natural gas) car. Using fuel cells means you can get 60%-70% efficiency instead of 40% of thermal engines because you don't have Carnot't limit. Also, with natural gas lots of people will be able to charge on their home. Lots of people have natural gas pipelines in their houses in Europe. Today you can use this f…

Isn't using any hydrocarbon going to give you the issue with pollution that gasoline does? You're not really solving any problems simply changing what hydrocarbon you choose to burn.

IMO, that would depend on the form the waste carbon is produced in, which would influence how it is disposed of. Taking a common hydrocarbon such as propane, and stripping all the hydrogens out of it will produce pure carbon. Last I checked, carbon tends to be a solid at standard pressure and temperature. AFAICT, the concern about carbon pollution is it ending up in the atmosphere in the form of gaseous compounds and messing with the complex feedback loops that regulate the climate. Solid carbon isn't going to do that very well.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#55

Post by sliverstorm »

krschultz wrote: post #35
soperj wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. What on earth do the car companies have to get out of it? The big name in the 90s, Ballard, had buy in from a couple of car companies and no oil companies.

Don't picture a bunch of oil tycoons with monocles sitting in back rooms smoking cigars with Ford execs laughing about how they are going to crush Tesla. It's much more subtle than that. I grew up around cars. My dad races them as his hobby. We restored a few, and spent plenty of time wrenching on a car together. It was one of the highlights of my childhood. It's still one of the things we often talk about when we se…

There is real nostalgia around cars, and that means gasoline/diesel engines.

Sure. And as a petrolhead, I will miss IC engines when they go. But it's a long leap from "implicit affection for IC engines" to "strategically presenting a build-to-fail engine technology to discredit alternative fuel".

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#56

Post by sliverstorm »

Animats wrote: post #49
hansjorg wrote: post #19

Toyota, which is the largest car manufacturer by volume, have stated repeatedly that they are betting on hydrogen fuel cells rather than batteries. Given their track record with hybrids, one would think that they know their battery technology. None of the anti-hydrogen fuel cell articles that have popped up here lately have mentioned this. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the Toyota strategy from this po…

Toyota's interest is surprising. I saw that recently, and was amazed. I thought everyone had given up on hydrogen as an auto fuel, now that batteries were good enough for electric cars. Hydrogen is not itself a source of energy. It has to be made from something. Electrolysis of water is more wasteful of energy than putting the same electricity into a battery. Hydrogen from natural gas is possible, but why not just ru…

Hydrogen is not itself a source of energy.

(The same can be said of both electricity and batteries)

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#57

Post by sandworm »

The threat to the car companies is that all-electric cars could dramatically decrease demand. They hope the complexity of fuel cells will keep demand going a few more decades.

An all-electric car could have as few as a hundred moving parts. A few motors and connecting rods, some suspension componants, fans and a couple manual controls. You just don't need the thousands of tiny metal bits necessary to keep a gas/diesel engine ticking over. Better yet, those parts you do need can be generic. Electric motors are nothing special, nor are batteries. Since they do not mechanically interact they don't need to be as engine/vehicle specific as parts today. Once EVs become the norm, and the teething problems of EVs are worked out, aftermarket replacements will be everywhere.

Build a car from non-rusting carbon fiber, fill it with easily replaceable generic parts, and you've got a recipe for vehicles lasting decades. THAT's what the car companies really fear.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#58

Post by thrownaway2424 »

Shivetya wrote: post #37

Get back to me when a practical, affordable, and go over 300 mile on a charge, battery powered car is here. Currently batteries are not a practical replacement. Currently if you want to hit near 300, you don't quite get there, your in the eighty thousand plus range if that low after common options for your only real choice. Home charging is still a four hour plus affair with the best chargers. Odd he claims that a hu…

Nearly all car trips are way under 300 miles. I believe the P95 trip distance (in the USA) is 30 miles each way. Most people can use an affordable pure-electric car such as the Leaf, e-Golf, or Fiat 500e for most trips. From a system optimization perspective, it's OK if some people (like you) always need the range of an internal combustion engine and everyone else switches to electric.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#59

Post by higherpurpose »

soperj wrote: post #9
r00fus wrote: post #5

The article deftly steps around the real issue: Fuel Cells are entirely an petroleum industry promotion. The goal is to provide a seemingly credible (but in reality completely unworkable) clean alternative so politicians, car companies and oil companies together can work "towards a clean future" while deep down knowing that it's a stalling tactic to keep the petroleum infrastructure in place. Any fuel cell funding su…

I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. What on earth do the car companies have to get out of it? The big name in the 90s, Ballard, had buy in from a couple of car companies and no oil companies.

For one, because they see Tesla as "winning" this "paradigm shift in cars", which could be (will be, in my opinion) just as disruptive as Apple's touchscreen was to the former cellphone industry.

In such a situation having the paradigm shift happen in the first place is bad news for you, especially if you're a leader of the old paradigm. Microsoft, RIM and Nokia were all laughing off the iPhone in the first few years, so people would stay away from them and keep buying their "old stuff".

So yeah, I can very much see how companies like Toyota and whoever else is promoting the totally unworkable fuel cell car "revolution" would be in bed with the oil industry. They'd rather push for something that barely changes the status quo, but at the same time is seen as "revolutionary" in the media, than go into electric cars.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#60

Post by Htsthbjig »

mhurron wrote: post #38
Htsthbjig wrote: post #33

I believe fuel cells will work when they can use methane, butane or propane cheaply. I already use an NGV(natural gas) car. Using fuel cells means you can get 60%-70% efficiency instead of 40% of thermal engines because you don't have Carnot't limit. Also, with natural gas lots of people will be able to charge on their home. Lots of people have natural gas pipelines in their houses in Europe. Today you can use this f…

Isn't using any hydrocarbon going to give you the issue with pollution that gasoline does? You're not really solving any problems simply changing what hydrocarbon you choose to burn.

"Isn't using any hydrocarbon going to give you the issue with pollution that gasoline does"

Not really. A fuel cell converts an hydrocarbon to C02. That's it.

A thermal engine like a diesel creates particles like this: http://www.epa.gov/region1/eco/airtox/diesel.html

And the high temperatures creates nitrogen oxides that create acid rain.

When you start a car, the catalyst converter needs 5 to 10 minutes to get enough temperature for starting to work.

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