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As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

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Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#21

Post by briantakita2 »

brador wrote: post #11
briantakita wrote: post #7

I hate to say this (& will be downvoted), but our obsession with reductionist thinking blinds us to the actual causes of cancer. Just like unit tests blind the programmer from how the system works. From a holistic perspective, cancer is caused by an acidic, low oxygen environment or "stagnant energy". Emotional well being, energy work, & massage therapy has also been anecdotally reported by practitioners to cause can…

By what process does acid/low oxygen cause cancer in your theory? By what sequence of events? Talk me through it. Aside, the proposed 'cure' of anecdotal relaxing and energy therapies is heavily affected by survivor bias. And without consistent repeatability is unusable in a professional medical environment.

Unknowns. Its not my theory either.

Think of this like a craftsman. Just like programmers don't use the scientific method to adopt & evolve practices.

It's a cultural phenomena that utilizes anecdotal accounts to advance the practice.

Advantages & Disadvantages. It seems more useful in environments with many variables, like life.

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#22

Post by briantakita2 »

raldi wrote: post #18
briantakita wrote: post #7

I hate to say this (& will be downvoted), but our obsession with reductionist thinking blinds us to the actual causes of cancer. Just like unit tests blind the programmer from how the system works. From a holistic perspective, cancer is caused by an acidic, low oxygen environment or "stagnant energy". Emotional well being, energy work, & massage therapy has also been anecdotally reported by practitioners to cause can…

> I hate to say this (& will be downvoted) I stopped reading at that point and downvoted you.

Thank you for the info. I'll stop doing that.

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#23

Post by raldi »

briantakita2 wrote: post #22
raldi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hate to say this (& will be downvoted) I stopped reading at that point and downvoted you.

Thank you for the info. I'll stop doing that.

It's a pretty transparent attempt at reverse psychology, and a form of vote-begging.

Intstead try, "I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this, but..."

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#24

Post by brador »

briantakita2 wrote: post #21
brador wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By what process does acid/low oxygen cause cancer in your theory? By what sequence of events? Talk me through it. Aside, the proposed 'cure' of anecdotal relaxing and energy therapies is heavily affected by survivor bias. And without consistent repeatability is unusable in a professional medical environment.

Unknowns. Its not my theory either. Think of this like a craftsman. Just like programmers don't use the scientific method to adopt & evolve practices. It's a cultural phenomena that utilizes anecdotal accounts to advance the practice. Advantages & Disadvantages. It seems more useful in environments with many variables, like life.

Without a process you're using correlation implies causation. Which can lead to a lot of wrong turns. Especially when that correlation is based on anecdotal non repeatable massively multi variate data like you said.

Could be true, could be a dead end, don't put as much weight as you did on it.

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#25

Post by briantakita2 »

Sanddancer wrote: post #20
briantakita wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does cancer occur in healthy ecosystems? Maybe big data & reductionism is an incomplete approach... On the flip side, such techniques will make some people a lot of money, so ignore or downvote my concerns...

Yes, cancer occurs in healthy ecosystems. The process of tumorgenesis has a lot of variables that we're still unwinding. There is another cancer out there that is deadlier, and makes a lot of people a lot of money too through questionable means. It goes by names of holistic medicine and "questioning big medicine". It's a gang of the uninformed, led by charlatans and frauds preying on the sick and the dying, spewing t…

I'm a programmer who eats healthy & practices yoga. I don't make money from cancer patients.

You are demonizing many techniques. Are you saying that there is only one way to medicine, and that is large drug companies & established professional organizations?

How do new practices & techniques get off the ground in such an environment? Is it possible to be healthy & treat disease independent of these companies in your opinion?

Also, where is the archeological evidence of cancer epidemics in ancient times?

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#26

Post by sk5t »

briantakita wrote: post #16
sk5t wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientific method = develop a testable hypothesis, design an experimental protocol, crunch the numbers, repeat, repeat, repeat, document it, work with peers to replicate the experiment if the results look useful. Quackery = employ contextually meaningless words like "low-oxygen" or "energy work," profess there is an effective plan of treatment that vested interests would like to hush up. Guess what, people dying of c…

> Scientific method = develop a testable hypothesis, design an experimental protocol, crunch the numbers, repeat, repeat, repeat, document it, work with peers to replicate the experiment if the results look useful. We are in agreement about the scientific method. The thing is institution of Science is an organizing body that publishes research. Most of the scientists are paid by corporate interests. As with Tobacco s…

Cost of testing should work to the benefit of alternative approaches, shouldn't it? It's not very expensive to give a massage or lead meditation.

The problem is, whether due to variability of practices or some other factors, in the best case, practitioners cannot reliably say if their treatment offers any benefit. Without statistics there is simply no way to identify a useful treatment; people are horrible at correctly identifying correlations on their own when the data are in any way nuanced.

So, it seems morally and intellectually hazardous to suggest alternative medicine when there is no credible way to show that helps anyone other than the purveyors of crystals, water-molecule-aligning bottles, wellness seminars, etc.

But ah, we do know that placebos have some benefit. So have a placebo instead!

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#27

Post by briantakita2 »

raldi wrote: post #23
briantakita2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the info. I'll stop doing that.

It's a pretty transparent attempt at reverse psychology, and a form of vote-begging. Intstead try, "I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this, but..."

I can see how it's perceived that way. Fwiw, that was my frustration of down votes for unpopular, well meaning, statements.

Thank you for the communication & attitude tip. I'll adopt it.

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#28

Post by briantakita2 »

brador wrote: post #24
briantakita2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unknowns. Its not my theory either. Think of this like a craftsman. Just like programmers don't use the scientific method to adopt & evolve practices. It's a cultural phenomena that utilizes anecdotal accounts to advance the practice. Advantages & Disadvantages. It seems more useful in environments with many variables, like life.

Without a process you're using correlation implies causation. Which can lead to a lot of wrong turns. Especially when that correlation is based on anecdotal non repeatable massively multi variate data like you said. Could be true, could be a dead end, don't put as much weight as you did on it.

Evolution uses a similar process. Life seems to successfully evolve.

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#29

Post by sk5t »

briantakita2 wrote: post #25
Sanddancer wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, cancer occurs in healthy ecosystems. The process of tumorgenesis has a lot of variables that we're still unwinding. There is another cancer out there that is deadlier, and makes a lot of people a lot of money too through questionable means. It goes by names of holistic medicine and "questioning big medicine". It's a gang of the uninformed, led by charlatans and frauds preying on the sick and the dying, spewing t…

I'm a programmer who eats healthy & practices yoga. I don't make money from cancer patients. You are demonizing many techniques. Are you saying that there is only one way to medicine, and that is large drug companies & established professional organizations? How do new practices & techniques get off the ground in such an environment? Is it possible to be healthy & treat disease independent of these companies in your…

Well, there are historical records of cancer, but it's a bigger problem now because people are getting old enough often enough to succumb to it, and it is being diagnosed as cancer and not as "dropsy" or who-knows-what in lieu of superficially visible tumors.
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