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As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

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Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#11

Post by brador »

briantakita wrote: post #7

I hate to say this (& will be downvoted), but our obsession with reductionist thinking blinds us to the actual causes of cancer. Just like unit tests blind the programmer from how the system works. From a holistic perspective, cancer is caused by an acidic, low oxygen environment or "stagnant energy". Emotional well being, energy work, & massage therapy has also been anecdotally reported by practitioners to cause can…

By what process does acid/low oxygen cause cancer in your theory? By what sequence of events? Talk me through it.

Aside, the proposed 'cure' of anecdotal relaxing and energy therapies is heavily affected by survivor bias. And without consistent repeatability is unusable in a professional medical environment.

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#12

Post by throwaway344 »

briantakita wrote: post #7

I hate to say this (& will be downvoted), but our obsession with reductionist thinking blinds us to the actual causes of cancer. Just like unit tests blind the programmer from how the system works. From a holistic perspective, cancer is caused by an acidic, low oxygen environment or "stagnant energy". Emotional well being, energy work, & massage therapy has also been anecdotally reported by practitioners to cause can…

I hate to feed the troll but...

What the hell are acidic or low oxygen environments, and "stagnant energy"?

Do you think that the environment is getting less oxygenated, or more acidic? Is our world getting more stagnant?

I got that you ignore clinical trials for some reason, but outside of that, can you test for these so-called other factors of cancer? What do they look like? From an epidemiological point of view, can you prevent them?

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#13

Post by sk5t »

briantakita wrote: post #10
sk5t wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most likely you are getting downvoted for casting about a line of unscientific quackery. General hacker objections to this have _nothing_ to do with "religious (or financially sponsored)" bias, nor groupthink, unless you consider the scientific method groupthink.

Are you talking about the scientific method or the marketing of the institution of corporate Science, which increasingly looks like a religion? As far as "quackery", that sounds analogous to "blasphemy". Some techniques work & some don't. Some techniques are not in the financial interests of mainstream industries to be studied. Another issue is, who can afford to create a "valid" peer-reviewed article? It seems like…

Scientific method = develop a testable hypothesis, design an experimental protocol, crunch the numbers, repeat, repeat, repeat, document it, work with peers to replicate the experiment if the results look useful.

Quackery = employ contextually meaningless words like "low-oxygen" or "energy work," profess there is an effective plan of treatment that vested interests would like to hush up.

Guess what, people dying of cancer will try almost anything to get better. If massage or interpretive dance worked better than chemo, it wouldn't remain a secret.

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#14

Post by briantakita »

throwaway344 wrote: post #12
briantakita wrote: post #7

I hate to say this (& will be downvoted), but our obsession with reductionist thinking blinds us to the actual causes of cancer. Just like unit tests blind the programmer from how the system works. From a holistic perspective, cancer is caused by an acidic, low oxygen environment or "stagnant energy". Emotional well being, energy work, & massage therapy has also been anecdotally reported by practitioners to cause can…

I hate to feed the troll but... What the hell are acidic or low oxygen environments, and "stagnant energy"? Do you think that the environment is getting less oxygenated, or more acidic? Is our world getting more stagnant? I got that you ignore clinical trials for some reason, but outside of that, can you test for these so-called other factors of cancer? What do they look like? From an epidemiological point of view, c…

> What the hell are acidic or low oxygen environments, and "stagnant energy".

Organisms with Aerobic (high oxygen) vs organisms with anaerobic (low oxygen) metabolic processes within the human body.

Stagnant Energy is a holistic term to mean stuff that doesn't flow. Think of a knot in your back as "stagnant energy". In a healthy back, the muscles would distribute evenly.

> I got that you ignore clinical trials for some reason, but outside of that, can you test for these so-called other factors of cancer? What do they look like? From an epidemiological point of view, can you prevent them?

I don't know if you can even isolate causes with precision. I also question the utility of isolating causes.

If you can live a healthy lifestyle, with low stress, a natural diet, low pollution, then I would intuitively think that you will have less disease. The problem is in the western world, intuition is demonized due to our cultural bias.

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#15

Post by robbiep »

briantakita wrote: post #8
webwanderings wrote: post #2

Excerpt: We now know that breast cancer is not one disease. What works for one person might not for another: There is no one “cure.” We are each, in effect, one-person clinical trials. Yet the knowledge generated from those trials will die with us because there is no comprehensive database of metastatic breast cancer patients, their characteristics and what treatments did and didn't help them. In the Big Data-era, th…

Does cancer occur in healthy ecosystems? Maybe big data & reductionism is an incomplete approach... On the flip side, such techniques will make some people a lot of money, so ignore or downvote my concerns...

> Does cancer occur in healthy ecosystems?

Honestly, what does that even mean? And if you are trying to suggest that cancer is related to some imbalance in the environment, the answer is, yes, cancer occurs everywhere and anywhere. It is not limited to humans and did not start post-industrial Revolution.

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#16

Post by briantakita »

sk5t wrote: post #13
briantakita wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about the scientific method or the marketing of the institution of corporate Science, which increasingly looks like a religion? As far as "quackery", that sounds analogous to "blasphemy". Some techniques work & some don't. Some techniques are not in the financial interests of mainstream industries to be studied. Another issue is, who can afford to create a "valid" peer-reviewed article? It seems like…

Scientific method = develop a testable hypothesis, design an experimental protocol, crunch the numbers, repeat, repeat, repeat, document it, work with peers to replicate the experiment if the results look useful. Quackery = employ contextually meaningless words like "low-oxygen" or "energy work," profess there is an effective plan of treatment that vested interests would like to hush up. Guess what, people dying of c…

> Scientific method = develop a testable hypothesis, design an experimental protocol, crunch the numbers, repeat, repeat, repeat, document it, work with peers to replicate the experiment if the results look useful.

We are in agreement about the scientific method.

The thing is institution of Science is an organizing body that publishes research. Most of the scientists are paid by corporate interests. As with Tobacco scientists in the 1950s, there have been some shady practices with the FDA & related corporate scientists.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...

> Quackery = employ contextually meaningless words like "low-oxygen" or "energy work," profess there is an effective plan of treatment that vested interests would like to hush up.

It's more like hand-waving on my part. I'm pointing out that there are other theories out there that have not been fully explored.

> Guess what, people dying of cancer will try almost anything to get better. If massage or interpretive dance worked better than chemo, it wouldn't remain a secret.

Part of the problem is it's difficult to have a controlled experiment with all of these alternative medicine techniques, due to variability of practices. Also, less established practices do not have the capital & institutional mindshare to facilitate proper scientific studies.

Another possibility is cancer is a complex phenomena that does not have simple causes.

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#17

Post by robbiep »

briantakita wrote: post #14
throwaway344 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to feed the troll but... What the hell are acidic or low oxygen environments, and "stagnant energy"? Do you think that the environment is getting less oxygenated, or more acidic? Is our world getting more stagnant? I got that you ignore clinical trials for some reason, but outside of that, can you test for these so-called other factors of cancer? What do they look like? From an epidemiological point of view, c…

> What the hell are acidic or low oxygen environments, and "stagnant energy". Organisms with Aerobic (high oxygen) vs organisms with anaerobic (low oxygen) metabolic processes within the human body. Stagnant Energy is a holistic term to mean stuff that doesn't flow. Think of a knot in your back as "stagnant energy". In a healthy back, the muscles would distribute evenly. > I got that you ignore clinical trials for so…

> Organisms with Aerobic (high oxygen) vs organisms with anaerobic (low oxygen) metabolic processes within the human body.

That line just has no meaning when applied to physiology. The partial pressure of O2 at the level of the cell is between 3-5mmHg O2. This changes barely at all whether the body is hyper oxygenated (ie hooked up to high flow O2 in a hospital) or in the middle of a marathon. The idea that there are 'low oxygen' centres in our tissues is rediculous pseudoscience. Ie, terms that are sprouted with no meaning. And what do you mean by organisms? How basic is your understanding of human biology? Do you mean cells? It still has no meaning!

>I would intuitively think

Well that's the problem. Life doesn't work by intuition no matter how lovely it may feel to be living with the holistic anti science mindset. Facts are facts and the facts are a 'holistic/naturalistic' lifestyle, whatever that may mean these days, is not going to prevent or cure cancer any more Than the 'normal' methods of stopping smoking, exercising and remaining in a reasonable weight range

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#18

Post by raldi »

briantakita wrote: post #7

I hate to say this (& will be downvoted), but our obsession with reductionist thinking blinds us to the actual causes of cancer. Just like unit tests blind the programmer from how the system works. From a holistic perspective, cancer is caused by an acidic, low oxygen environment or "stagnant energy". Emotional well being, energy work, & massage therapy has also been anecdotally reported by practitioners to cause can…

> I hate to say this (& will be downvoted)

I stopped reading at that point and downvoted you.

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#19

Post by ChrisClark »

briantakita wrote: post #7

I hate to say this (& will be downvoted), but our obsession with reductionist thinking blinds us to the actual causes of cancer. Just like unit tests blind the programmer from how the system works. From a holistic perspective, cancer is caused by an acidic, low oxygen environment or "stagnant energy". Emotional well being, energy work, & massage therapy has also been anecdotally reported by practitioners to cause can…

Whatever you do, please don't spread your ideas to anyone else. We're already dealing with the baby-killing anti-vaccination movement. We don't need more deaths.

Want an answer to your question? "How can such a complex system with unknown unknowns be tested?" Slowly, and a little bit at a time until we have a better understanding. Better to build upon past successes than to throw it all out and start over with your complete misunderstanding of biology.

I realize I may be responding to a troll, but there really are people out there who think like this and are in danger of causing innocent deaths with their 'opinions'.

Re: As I lay dying: Final op-ed from LA Times journalist Laurie Beckland

#20

Post by Sanddancer »

briantakita wrote: post #8
webwanderings wrote: post #2

Excerpt: We now know that breast cancer is not one disease. What works for one person might not for another: There is no one “cure.” We are each, in effect, one-person clinical trials. Yet the knowledge generated from those trials will die with us because there is no comprehensive database of metastatic breast cancer patients, their characteristics and what treatments did and didn't help them. In the Big Data-era, th…

Does cancer occur in healthy ecosystems? Maybe big data & reductionism is an incomplete approach... On the flip side, such techniques will make some people a lot of money, so ignore or downvote my concerns...

Yes, cancer occurs in healthy ecosystems. The process of tumorgenesis has a lot of variables that we're still unwinding.

There is another cancer out there that is deadlier, and makes a lot of people a lot of money too through questionable means. It goes by names of holistic medicine and "questioning big medicine". It's a gang of the uninformed, led by charlatans and frauds preying on the sick and the dying, spewing their effluent without regard. It metastizes in communities of those looking for some sort of hope beyond hope, infecting these vulnerable communities. You, good sir, are that cancer. You, good sir, with your ignorance lead people to death with your ignorance. I hope, good sir, that you educate yourself, before you cause any more pain, suffering, and death.

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