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Ask HN: What to do when all you have is talent?

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Re: Ask HN: What to do when all you have is talent?

#91

Post by lomnakkus »

tfg4k wrote: post #76
lomnakkus wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I interview well and am quite easy to deal with on an interpersonal level. This is one thing I would question about your self-assessment. What evidence are you relying on for this statement? The reason I say this is that, (I believe) research shows that anything beyond the first 30 seconds or so during an interview actually doesn't matter. Obviously this is a statistical thing and may not apply in any given concret…

I speak well and make a great first impression, honestly. I have always understood how important that is. Having said that, I just realized that what I started considering as the problem (my resume) may not be what needs work. In another comment, the statement was made that companies are willing to overlook certain things for the right candidate. Perhaps my garbage resume is being overlooked I make it past the first…

> I speak well and make a great first impression, honestly. I have always understood how important that is.

You say and believe that, obviously. But do you have independent and (above all) disinterested corroboration?

(I think the experience you relate in the last paragraph might be a symptom of increasing pressure being put on the hiring part of HR and them, thus, being reluctant to reject candidates earlier.)

Re: Ask HN: What to do when all you have is talent?

#92

Post by tfg4k »

beachstartup wrote: post #30

i'm going to give you some tough love right now, because you've sort of got the wrong concept of what a 'security job' is in your head. first of all - why the hell are you waiting for someone to give you permission to start doing this job? if you want to do this job, just start fucking doing it. contribute to security mailing lists and keep an eye out for opportunities. write articles. blog. go to events. write code,…

>if you don't actively participate in a community nobody is going to give a shit about you, much less hand you a career with a pretty bow on it.

Nope, obviously. They sure will post on a comment thread about it though.

Sorry, This struck me as a bit over the top with the presumptions, tone, etc..

Re: Ask HN: What to do when all you have is talent?

#94

Post by lhl »

tfg4k wrote: post #82
lhl wrote: post #77

15 years in, formal eduction shouldn't be a big deal. Assuming you made a deep positive impact on successful projects, you should have a deep network or connections and referrals to tap? If not, you need to answer that question. Why are you "bluffing" through jobs when you should have a large tool-belt of experience? Just-in-time/on-the-job learning should be a positive, but it sounds like you need to improve your so…

Thanks much. The 'bluffing' was how I got the tool-belt. Again, my apologies for such a sloppy first post. LinkedIn, while up to date, has never done anything for me but spam me about things like endorsements and birthdays. Well, and get my contact info into the hands of every spambot posing as a headhunter on the planet. It's there though. Former coworkers are hard to track down but all have written recommendations…

Hmm, but none of the former managers or co-workers have managed to recommend positions or leads to you?

In anycase, I suggest you pick a specialty, whether it's infosec or something else, and make sure you are participating in the proper communities online - Twitter, mailing lists, meetups, etc and actually get really good at something.

From your response to mattmurdog, it sounds like you are defining talent differently from how I think most of the people here would - where talent == actual, not potentially acquired skills/experience.

There are a near infinite number of bugs, RFEs, unsolved problems, and projects to be done (just scan the articles that show up on HN every day). Publicly demonstrate the ability to fix some of those (like actually upstream some patches, release some projects), and honestly, you shouldn't have any problem getting a contract or any other kind of gig. Real (demonstrably productive) talent in tech is always in short supply.

Re: Ask HN: What to do when all you have is talent?

#96

Post by rifung »

tfg4k wrote: post #82
lhl wrote: post #77

15 years in, formal eduction shouldn't be a big deal. Assuming you made a deep positive impact on successful projects, you should have a deep network or connections and referrals to tap? If not, you need to answer that question. Why are you "bluffing" through jobs when you should have a large tool-belt of experience? Just-in-time/on-the-job learning should be a positive, but it sounds like you need to improve your so…

Thanks much. The 'bluffing' was how I got the tool-belt. Again, my apologies for such a sloppy first post. LinkedIn, while up to date, has never done anything for me but spam me about things like endorsements and birthdays. Well, and get my contact info into the hands of every spambot posing as a headhunter on the planet. It's there though. Former coworkers are hard to track down but all have written recommendations…

Have you tried applying on AngelList? I'm just asking because I just got an offer yesterday (yay!) for a full stack position even though I had no prior experience in either back or front end.

I recommend you try to apply to start ups because usually you'll have an easier time if you have the smarts but not the skills. Also I don't think you mentioned whether you were getting interviews or not, but if you are then I really recommend improving on the areas that you don't do well on.

Finally, while I also feel like I don't get much from LinkedIn, I also noticed that when I apply to a company they often check my LinkedIn profile, so I would suggest you put any work you need into it.

And of course.. do some cool projects that you can show other people! I remember reading a post on here from a week or two ago about how there are no good web fuzzing tools? To be honest I'm not really in the know about security but try and see if there's something that would be useful to make, simplifying as necessary so that you can start it on your own.

Re: Ask HN: What to do when all you have is talent?

#97

Post by rifung »

tfg4k wrote: post #59
dustingetz wrote: post #52

people as talented as you say you are, do not end up needing to write this post. Just my opinion

Noted and thank you for posting it. It just is a bit more complicated than that. I have been working on a Security focused startup to provide free training to the public as well as Risk Assessment, Pen Testing, etc. to the local small business community because no one else is doing it. Also, about the talent thing: The talent is being able to adapt quickly. It doesn't really help when you're broke and there just isn'…

I respect your passion and enthusiasm, but you seem to lack patience. Seeing as you keep bringing up your financial situation as a barrier, why don't you take a job that's not necessarily the one you love, but one that will provide financial stability so that you can spend your other time learning about security related stuff? That will also give you time to apply to other companies and not have to settle for less than what you deserve.

If you already feel like you are an expert or at least good enough to have a job in it, then apply those skills and make something to show your prospective employers.

Again, if your financial situation is not good then all these things just become more difficult. It sucks having a job you don't enjoy, trust me I am in one, but sometimes even if the job itself is not great, the things it will enable you to do make it worthwhile.

Please excuse me if I'm making too many assumptions about your situation, but you just remind me of a similar situation I was in a year ago.

Re: Ask HN: What to do when all you have is talent?

#98

Post by bane »

tfg4k wrote: post #90
bane wrote: post #86

I'm going to be a little rough, but it's not meant to slam you. Here's what I would see as a hiring manager if this was distilled down to a resume: 1. H.S. Diploma 2. Worked help desk and wiring jobs for 15 years with little to no upward career progression 3. No particular portfolio of work you can point to 4. Personally, given this background, you've ended up with a new family. I don't know if you're struggling to s…

I appreciate you being blunt. I'm not going to get anywhere if people tip-toe around any issues they may be able to bring to my attention. I'm not easily offended. I appreciate the last point. Career vs. Job. Yeah, I could go answer phones like I did when I was sixteen but that would just be stupid. Thanks for that comment!

Sure thing.

The real advice I have is that you have to figure out what your story is. What is the culmination of your experiences. If you're still doing help-desk - that's a job people effectively right out of high school do with minimal training. It's the fast-food cashier of tech jobs.

Are you still doing that same job, or have you learned something in that time? If so, if you've aggregated experience and knowledge, you need to figure out how to tell that story and how to distill it down into your resume and interview.

A long time ago I did tech support also, but I know I learned lots of soft skills. It took me a while to figure out how to parlay those into better jobs, but now, many years later and mid-career, those same skills get exercised every single day.

I think your best bet is honestly figuring out how to rerepresent your job time as a career, start building a portfolio you can show off, and start networking.

Re: Ask HN: What to do when all you have is talent?

#99

Post by g0v »

david_shaw wrote: post #31

I can't speak for the rest of the industry, but since I'm the CTO of an information security consultancy, I can at least provide an informed opinion. Many, many security companies don't care what your formal education is. The reason for this is simple: there aren't many (or, perhaps, any) undergraduate computer security programs that are cutting-edge and relevant enough to teach the skills needed to be a good hacker.…

Hearing this from someone like yourself brings me great joy...

In 2011 after my time in the military was through I made a decision to get into infosec. I didn't know how to code, had never been to college, and only had IT knowledge from being a typical computer geek in high school. That same year I found out there was security firm in my relatively small hometown, so I emailed them.

Since then I've been reading books, coding, and emailing that firm every 5 months or so basically asking for work. To hear that self-motivation, passion, and drive are big hiring factors to you makes all this studying I've done over the past few years worth more to me than before I read your post.

I finally got a "maybe later this year" from the technical lead, I'm crossing my fingers.

Thank you.

Re: Ask HN: What to do when all you have is talent?

#100

Post by tfg4k »

bane wrote: post #98
tfg4k wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate you being blunt. I'm not going to get anywhere if people tip-toe around any issues they may be able to bring to my attention. I'm not easily offended. I appreciate the last point. Career vs. Job. Yeah, I could go answer phones like I did when I was sixteen but that would just be stupid. Thanks for that comment!

Sure thing. The real advice I have is that you have to figure out what your story is. What is the culmination of your experiences. If you're still doing help-desk - that's a job people effectively right out of high school do with minimal training. It's the fast-food cashier of tech jobs. Are you still doing that same job, or have you learned something in that time? If so, if you've aggregated experience and knowledge…

Right-Right. I don't know what it was in the OP that gave people the idea that I am still working help-desk stuff. It was my first technical job.
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