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A Russian TV Insider Describes a Modern Propaganda Machine

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Re: A Russian TV Insider Describes a Modern Propaganda Machine

#91
post #26

Public indoctrination through control of the media is easily the most pressing problem of our days. Far more important than that of the global warming, for example, simply because it blocks meaningful discussion on the subjects that really matter. While the public opinion is manipulated both in the US and in Russia, the methods and outcomes are vastly different. For a diligent study of the US media manipulation I hig…

The problem with Chomsky is that he views everything from a left-wing perspective, in which he interprets the biases in the media as coming only from big money and the geopolitical power that big money relies on. He cannot explain, for example, the success of pro-immigration politics. He might argue that immigration is a tool used by the powerful to lower the cost of labor, but to do so is to completely ignore that i…

I too find Chomsky a bit too far to the left, and indeed he doesn't have all the answers in his worldview. The questions you pointed out seem important.

Nevertheless, the list of techniques and examples of media manipulation that he has painstakingly documented in his book is valuable in its own right. You don't have to agree with all or even most of Chomsky to give due consideration to some of his work.

Re: A Russian TV Insider Describes a Modern Propaganda Machine

#92

Funny story: In Germany there is currently a "movement" of people calling for stricter immigration control (to abbreviate an endless discussion about what they actually want), called Pegida. During one of their demonstrations a comedy/satire show dressed up an actor as a "Russian" journalist from "Russia Today", a news caster/online magazine financed by the Russian state. The Pegida participants were very willing to…

Actually this shows the opposite. The mainstream media is unwilling to engage in discussion with someone who is anti-immigration (unless that person is is an Israeli politician). Instead they do cheap tricks to humiliate the speaker without addressing their actual arguments. The mainstream media, like all people, has the accusation of "racism" hanging over their heads so they are unable to speak freely on topics like…

To be fair, PEGIDA is intentionally offensive.

In Germany "patriotism" is still a touchy subject although we seem to be becoming less uncomfortable with the concept. This is a process that takes time, but there has been a clear progression over the recent decades, especially thanks to our economical endurance and, of course, football.

Likewise, "islamisation" is an overloaded term. Taken literally it just means an increasing cultural dominance of Islam. In practice, for many it's primarily a racial issue dating back to the "Gastarbeiter" fallacy several decades ago -- in fact, quite a few of the (mostly elderly) "concerned citizens" willing to explain their motivation name the uncontrolled influx of Turkish people.

There are at least three factors at play here: asylum seekers, actual first generation immigrants and "unassimilated" n-th generation immigrants.

The asylum seekers are mostly legitimate. Some of them would love to return to their country (but can't due to war / ethnic tensions), some of them would love to stay and become German citizens. Neither of them is generally allowed to seek employment and both of them continually face the risk of getting deported at a moment's notice. Both of them are portrayed as "parasites" by right-wing groups as well as some vocal members and sub-groups of PEGIDA. They also aren't exclusively or even predominantly Arabic muslisms (most are neither), contrary to what anti-asylum groups would have you believe.

The first-generation immigrants generally come to Europe because they want to live and work here. They are frequently well-educated and interested in adopting the local language and culture. Unsurprisingly that doesn't mean they want to abandon their heritage completely. Contrary to public opinion, they generally don't "bring their unfit family over who claim social benefits without ever having paid into the system". There are immigrants who abuse social benefits, but there are far more non-immigrants who do the same. Additionally, immigrants face discrimination when seeking employment or trying to establish a business; frequently any credentials are dismissed entirely, too, so they are nearly always classified as "uneducated" regardless of their actual background.

The n-th generation immigrants sometimes cause problems, frequently they do not. There is arguably a large number of adolescent or young adult criminals who are at odds with social norms (e.g. being misogynists and prone to violence). But the underlying issues are actually more complex than that.

When Germany first tried to raise immigration we did it because we needed a large number of mostly unskilled workers and Germans weren't willing to take the jobs for various reasons (my opinion on this matter is irrelevant). For economical reasons, many of the immigrants came from Turkey and the Middle East. They largely saw this as a chance to improve their situation and that of their family.

However we considered them not immigrants but "Gastarbeiter" (guest workers). The implication was that they were invited temporarily and expected to leave eventually. Because we only considered them "guests" (who eventually outstayed their welcome), we didn't come up with any plans to make sure they would integrate into society, learn the language and take our values to heart. Somehow this still worked out, generally speaking.

For some, however, it didn't work out. The first-generation immigrants would often be working low-income jobs, barely enough to sustain their family here while sending money to their relatives back "home". Like most people who have undergone hardships, they would often spoil their children (especially boys, if their culture was already strictly patriarchal). Their children, however, would face discrimination outside their "kind": to the other kids they'd just be immigrants, not "real" Germans. At the same time, when visiting their relatives, they would find that their "home country" would be entirely alien to them, they'd be foreigners in both places, nowhere at home. Add in the common other factors for youth criminality and you end up where we are today.

Sure, that's a gross oversimplification and the criminal "immigrant" youth of today is often not just in their second generation but in their third or forth, but the basic sequence of events is frequently no different.

But even disregarding the "why", what are we supposed to do with n-th generation "immigrants" we don't like? It's naive to believe that deportation is even remotely possible or sensible. They're Germans, not just "guests". They've often lived in Germany all their live and at best spent a few vacations in their "home" country. They're our problem and it is cowardly to pretend they're not.

But rehabilitation is of course a far more boring and unappealing answer than deportation.

Yes, Islamism is a problem. We need to watch certain Muslim sects very closely. Yes, youth crime is a problem. We need to take better care of our youth and protect them from becoming criminals.

But PEGIDA is no more of an answer than "Hooligans against Salafists". It's strengthening the true parasites: nationalist right-wing groups. We don't need fearmongering and chest-thumping, we need intelligent solutions. And as long as we don't have those solutions, we need to find them.

/rant

Re: A Russian TV Insider Describes a Modern Propaganda Machine

#93

Any big media is a propaganda machine, starting by the New York Times, that is broke and easily controlled by those that sustain it. The US of A invaded Iraq and Afghanistan because somewhat a modern propaganda machine convinced Americans that because 21 guys coming from a friendly dictatorship nation decided to kill themselves in planes, they needed to invade another different country with probably the biggest oil r…

> Remember "war on terror" propaganda?

Sure do. It was largely spun by a single entity which wasn't state-owned (Fox News). And it was criticized by other agencies for doing so (MSNBC, CNN, Hell the Dailyshow made it their mission).

Let's see RussiaToday's competitors (do they have any?) criticize RussiaToday for defending the Ukraine situation. The entire organization would probably end up in a ditch somewhere, having died in a fatal plane crash.

Sorry, but as much as you want to equate the two, they are not remotely the same. To hold the belief that they are means the person lacks critical thought.

Re: A Russian TV Insider Describes a Modern Propaganda Machine

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really trying to equate CNN with a state-owned and operated news agency? Those news agencies are explicitly biased. Their sole goal in news reporting isn't profit or appeasing shareholders, but pushing their narrative of world events. Pushing their countries' ideology out onto the world. That's their only reason for existing. They don't care about profit or integrity in the slightest. If you think that's the…

You clearly have never watched RT. You have been indoctrinated by some illusion of free market delusion - typical of HN. If CNN cared about integrity nobody would be working there anymore. That you see this as an absolute black/white, good/evil and a strawman speaks to your ideology, not mine.

> You clearly have never watched RT.

I don't need to, to know that it's a state-run news agency looking to push their narrative out into the world. They don't even try to hide it. That's quite literally their sole reason for existing. Do they have good articles from time to time? I don't know, probably or they wouldn't be as successful as they are. But I'm not going to find out. I try to minimize the bias in getting my news, not expose myself to as much of it as possible. That's like forcing myself to read nazi propaganda because they might make a valid point in the second paragraph of chapter 23. In the end, it's still rubbish.

Re: A Russian TV Insider Describes a Modern Propaganda Machine

#95
We have engineered GMO food so why not engineered news media? Free speech is really a mechanism to protect advertisers. As I feel myself as a sort of penned livestock that gets to choose between competing capitalists, all I can say is I'm off Western news media as it gives me diarrhea, but if you can consume it then more power to you.

Re: A Russian TV Insider Describes a Modern Propaganda Machine

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually this shows the opposite. The mainstream media is unwilling to engage in discussion with someone who is anti-immigration (unless that person is is an Israeli politician). Instead they do cheap tricks to humiliate the speaker without addressing their actual arguments. The mainstream media, like all people, has the accusation of "racism" hanging over their heads so they are unable to speak freely on topics like…

Unwilling to engage? You seem to watch the wrong shows... I've seen tons of interviews with people advocating immigration control. Some where even quite friendly. There is a problem you don't seem to have noticed: The AFD Party does not only advocate tighter immigration control, but it also wants to hold offices. So if the news media document the utter failure of this party to even conduct their basic business withou…

>Unwilling to engage? You seem to watch the wrong shows... I've seen tons of interviews with people advocating immigration control. Some where even quite friendly.

As I said, the mainstream only allows a very narrow discourse on immigration, which Pegida don't seem to fall under.

You characterize this act as a fair way to expose the incompetence of would be politicians. I disagree. It's actually highly unfair, and I think any unbiased person can see that. Why did they pretend to be from RT instead of just asking Pegida their opinions about RT? I don't think Pegida would have given a different answer in either case. The real reason was to make Pegida look stupid. "Look, they can't even tell a real reporter from a fake one". Whatever you think about Pegida's views on freedom of the press and RT, they should be judged on their merits and not in the context of a stupid stunt.

As to what Pegida said, as I said before, I disagree but I see where they are coming from. They have a justified view that the Western press is not free when it comes to some issues. That they lack knowledge of RT and are uncritical of RT, is a minor issue.

Re: A Russian TV Insider Describes a Modern Propaganda Machine

#97
post #88
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single-sided "news" reports can be right in some cases and wrong in others. Given that there is no way to verify them, they are obviously untrustworthy at that time, even if later they turn out to be correct. When evaluating one-sided reports absent a different perspective, your best bet is to weight in the biases and the track record of the people reporting it. I'm not sure why you have a problem with that line of r…

It's not as though there were not refugees streaming out of the country recounting the atrocities and the difficulties they faced escaping the regime. Look, the first two years, the KCP itself thought it was illegitimate that it had no name. They didn't even acknowledge they existed. All you have to do is listen the population. When you have thousands of escapees and refugees recounting the same horrible things, it's…

Sadly, there is no shortage of manipulated victim testimonies either, often used to start or perpetuate a war.

- Nayirah testimony leading up to the 1st Iraq war [1]

- Numerous refugees testimonies leading up to the 2nd Iraq war (WMD, torture reports, etc)

- Torrent of testimonies from Ukraine in recent months, e.g. [2]

- I heard there is plenty of made-up material coming from Palestine

You can see how giving much credence to a single-sourced report is not just un-epistemological, but also plain dangerous in that it can easily make bad situation worse.

It's a very interesting question - how do we judge credibility of such reports? Clearly you can't take them at face value, but there must be things we can do. Obviously the best is a number of investigations by multiple independent people on site, but that's not always possible. One thing that comes to mind is interviewing all of the refugees and collating their accounts, as it could give a lot of data - people make errors, but if they all make the same errors it can point to manipulated accounts.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_%28testimony%29

[2] http://news.yahoo.com/russian-tv-sparks-outrage-ukraine-chil...

Re: A Russian TV Insider Describes a Modern Propaganda Machine

#98
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with Chomsky is that he views everything from a left-wing perspective, in which he interprets the biases in the media as coming only from big money and the geopolitical power that big money relies on. He cannot explain, for example, the success of pro-immigration politics. He might argue that immigration is a tool used by the powerful to lower the cost of labor, but to do so is to completely ignore that i…

I too find Chomsky a bit too far to the left, and indeed he doesn't have all the answers in his worldview. The questions you pointed out seem important. Nevertheless, the list of techniques and examples of media manipulation that he has painstakingly documented in his book is valuable in its own right. You don't have to agree with all or even most of Chomsky to give due consideration to some of his work.

I totally agree that Chomsky is worth reading and I'm trying to get around to reading his books myself. In my view he is very consistent, and this consistency makes it easier to understand the inconsistency of mainstream American liberals.

Re: A Russian TV Insider Describes a Modern Propaganda Machine

#99
post #97
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not as though there were not refugees streaming out of the country recounting the atrocities and the difficulties they faced escaping the regime. Look, the first two years, the KCP itself thought it was illegitimate that it had no name. They didn't even acknowledge they existed. All you have to do is listen the population. When you have thousands of escapees and refugees recounting the same horrible things, it's…

Sadly, there is no shortage of manipulated victim testimonies either, often used to start or perpetuate a war. - Nayirah testimony leading up to the 1st Iraq war [1] - Numerous refugees testimonies leading up to the 2nd Iraq war (WMD, torture reports, etc) - Torrent of testimonies from Ukraine in recent months, e.g. [2] - I heard there is plenty of made-up material coming from Palestine You can see how giving much cr…

I think if you can verify that people are indeed taking perilous journeys dragging along families and whatever possessions they can (usually the clothes on their backs and some money), it's a good indicator of bad things happening. In Kampuchea, it wasn't a few dozen people. There were lots of 'boat people' in vietnam, hong kong, who escaped from the Kh R. That in no way can be interpreted as being "ambiguous".

People don't travel through jungle, losing members along the way, for propaganda. Like I said, these weren't a few dozen people. It was thousands. People who ignored this can only be described as ideologues. It's kind of the same way some people in the West didn't want to believe gulags existed.

Re: A Russian TV Insider Describes a Modern Propaganda Machine

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unwilling to engage? You seem to watch the wrong shows... I've seen tons of interviews with people advocating immigration control. Some where even quite friendly. There is a problem you don't seem to have noticed: The AFD Party does not only advocate tighter immigration control, but it also wants to hold offices. So if the news media document the utter failure of this party to even conduct their basic business withou…

> Unwilling to engage? You seem to watch the wrong shows... I've seen tons of interviews with people advocating immigration control. Some where even quite friendly. As I said, the mainstream only allows a very narrow discourse on immigration, which Pegida don't seem to fall under. You characterize this act as a fair way to expose the incompetence of would be politicians. I disagree. It's actually highly unfair, and I…

Actually, journalists from serious media tried that. With very little success. Most participants refuse interviews, and there is a video where masked participants forcibly carry away an interviewee. In other videos journalists are hit, their cameras damaged, and all the time they are shouting hate at the journalists.

The "narrow" discussion of immigration is more due to the limited options which have any reasonable chance of getting public support. As we've seen, the majority disagrees with Pegida. Only a fringe portion of the German public wants to break the constitution to tighten immigration. And those who try to fall somewhere in between current policy and breaking the constitution, often don't understand the topic worth a damn. If a journalist has even a modest understanding of the topic he will have the greatest difficulty of entertaining opinions and solutions which are based on factual errors.

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