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How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

nytimes.com

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Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#431

Post by spb »

ChikkaChiChi wrote: post #365

The article cites the destruction of self-respect as being in some ways worse than a punishment of death. I could argue that those that participate in this sort of public shaming have a lack of self-respect and seek the thrill of dragging everyone else down to their level. Sadly, there will never be a lack of self-confidence, which means that there will never be a shortage of these sorts of things happening. I wish h…

> I could argue that those that participate in this sort of public shaming have a lack of self-respect and seek the thrill of dragging everyone else down to their level.

I think this idea is well-reflected in the movie Precious, when Precious's mother is put on the spot for abusing Precious and is forced to confront her motivations:

> Mary Lee Johnston: But, those... those things she told you I did to her? Who... who... who else was going to love me? Who else was going to touch me? Who else was going to make me feel good about myself?

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#432

Post by cheald »

ForHackernews wrote: post #357
cheald wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there are both of these, in which the women who worked with him defend him (Julie Sommerville in particular): http://venturebeat.com/2013/12/11/ladyboss/ http://www.amyvernon.net/glimpse/why-ive-joined-glimpse-labs... If you didn't think that Dickinson was being a racist, misogynistic, victim-blaming rape apologist, why those tweets in particular? This whole discussion is happening in the implict context of the…

> why those tweets in particular? Because those are the tweets that got him fired. Obviously! Fine, let's say Pax Dickinson is a completely wonderful guy without a bigoted bone in his body. He still showed monumentally bad judgment. I don't buy your premise that losing your C-level position (and being unable to find another one) after carrying on for years the way he did is such a "profound and disproportionate impac…

Yeah, he showed bad judgement. I'm not sure I agree that it was "monumentally bad". The fact of the matter is that he lost his job and has baggage that follows him around because people continue to perpetuate the Valleywag-constructed outrage, not because of actual behavioral sexism or racism (the accusations of which pretty rapidly evaporate upon closer inspection). It's not something that will blow over in a couple of weeks, because it's an enormous straw man that has taken on a life of its own at this point.

Regarding employability, you'll note that article is from Dec 2013. He's now gone from Glimpse.

> I also knew that I was holding Elissa back. I know my baggage was hurting the company. We were asked to insert clauses that would strip my equity if I “embarrassed” the company and it’s reasonable to assume that my presence as co-founder made other VCs shy away from us, which is heartbreaking to me because Elissa is fucking amazing and deserves better than that.

He further writes:

> My career has been irretrievably damaged. I’ll always have trouble finding a job. It used to be easy for me but even a year later I find that recruiters shy away and applications to jobs I’m well qualified for don’t result in a call back. I’m not worried, I know that with enough time I’ll find someone who doesn’t mind my notoriety given my skills, but I’ll always pay a very real price for this whole incident.

If he says it's still following him around, I'm inclined to believe him, because...well, he'd be the one to know.

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#433

Post by spb »

jakejake wrote: post #386
spb wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[McMurphy:] "Is this the usual pro-cedure for these Group Ther'py shindigs? Bunch of chickens at a peckin' party?" […] [Harding:]"A 'pecking party'? I fear your quaint down-home speech is wasted on me, my friend. I have not the slightest inclination what you're talking about." "Why then, I'll just explain it to you." McMurphy raises his voice; though he doesn't look at the other Acutes listening behind him, it's them…

great quote from a great movie. It's bizarre how much animal behavior we have in us when you look closely.

This is actually from the book, which is worth reading (also required reading, in some American high schools).

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#434

Post by marincounty »

gearoidoc wrote: post #345
650REDHAIR wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gross unprofessionalism? She wasn't on the job. It wasn't an official account.

I'd like to live to a world where your actions outside of the workplace in a physical or online sense don't affect how you're perceived but it's just not true.

I'm dating myself, but I grew up thinking pretty much whatever you did outside of work--was no one's business.

The first time I knew society changed was when Charlie Sheen was fired for his lifestyle. Actually, the first time was the Clinton/Monica fiasco.

The only benefit I see from this hyper morality is true hypocrites/authority figures are exposed. I partied in the eighties, like everyone else; The only time I was offered hard drugs was by three off duty cops at different engagements. I don't think I(a stranger) would get that offer today?

I don't like it when one of you guys are fired over something said, but I'm all for exposing hypocritical Politicians and Law Enforcement types. Yes, I have been harassed by law enforcement, and if it happens again, and all this tech works, I will post the offence online. Legally--I know they can randomly stop people, I can randomly post. I now have two cameras front and rear of my vechicle. I am waiting for the next time I get pulled over for no reason. I also try to keep that Iphone camera handy if I suspect abuse of authority.

I liked the old system because I was white and middle class, but I can't imagine what a lot of women and minorites had to put up with?

(Actually the I more think about it, maybe the reason we are so sensitive over online comments is because, as white males, we didn't experience the injustice the rest had to endure? I know my generation wasen't sexist, or racist, but my father's generation--is a whole other story.)

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#435

Post by ripdog »

taco_emoji wrote: post #241
ripdog wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A taste of her own medicine. It shouldn't have happened, but at least she only got what she gave.

She gave death threats?

She dog-whistled the mob, no doubt that mob gave death threats.

People lose their shit when anonymous trolls send death threats to prominent women, but typically completely ignore the same happening to men. Perhaps women get more because they react more? Perhaps people shouldn't feed the trolls?

Please don't reply to this with a pithy feel-good response like "nobody should send death threats!". It's like saying "there shouldn't be war in the world!". It's an obvious goal that everyone agrees on, but there is no way to achieve without use of totalitarian control over the world/internet - something I'm sure we can agree is unacceptable.

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#436

Post by latestrevision »

coldpie wrote: post #404
latestrevision wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gay (& partnered, fwiw), and I'd have to agree that there certainly aren't any good arguments against gay marriage; at least, not any arguments we'd accept in a wealthy, industrialized, western society at the beginning of this millennium, but do keep in mind that the great, great majority of the world does not agree with that assessment. So, what makes an argument legitimate? In order for one to suggest that ther…

I don't know that we need to go that far. In the US we take the stance that people should be free to do what they want unless what they want to do interferes with other people doing what they want. Where people conflict in their desires is where the law comes in to settle the matter. Whether that system is good or not is an open question, I guess, but it's what we have. Using that as a rulestick, no one will be negat…

Sure, keeping in mind that I don't disagree with any of that -- is this a stance that we've just adopted within the last ten(ish) years -- because if the issue of gay marriage were really that simple, wouldn't it have always been legal?

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#437

Post by omonra »

gnopgnip wrote: post #302
paulhauggis wrote: post #219

This is the reality of social media. If you offend the wrong person, you will most likely get fired from your job and or get unwanted attention in other parts of your life..all for just expressing an opinion. It's essentially online bullying by people that want to silence you for having an opinion that is different than their own. The ex-Mozilla CEO knows this well. An online bullying campaign was launched against hi…

Would society really be any better off if people aren't held accountable for what they say?

Yes.

You have to appreciate the difference between actionable speech and expressing an opinion.

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#438

Post by spb »

bcantrill wrote: post #423
geofft wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He acknowledges that in the replies, but this particular "idiocy" is not one of tone, behavior, or offense. It is about bad technical policy in the pursuit of ego, which is something that Linus has done several times since. (And he's a brilliant enough kernel hacker that he can work around his own bad policy and still come up with a system that works well, but that doesn't mean it's not bad technical policy. I feel b…

It's funny you should mention that, as that episode from nearly 20 years ago (!!) has come up much more in the last year than it did in the two decades prior. Of course, the reason is not an accident; it's a direct result of those who vehemently disagree with my handling of the Noordhuis pronoun incident. Anyway, your request is entirely fair, and let me be clear that I (obviously?) regret the have-you-ever-kissed-a-…

Whenever the Noordhuis incident comes up, I'm always quick to point out that `git push -f master`ing a non-fast-forward commit without prior warning is already halfway to a firing offense.

EDIT: No, wait, it was a revert commit, this just raises further questions.

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#439

Post by geofft »

celticninja wrote: post #372
geofft wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be extremely nice, if it worked. Then the entire question about distasteful means wouldn't come up, which would be better for everyone, because distasteful means are still distasteful. Unfortunately, that's not how changing minds works, in practice. http://www.contralbum.com/blog/2015/2/5/political-correctnes... See the section starting "The second great flaw...." (And yes, I get the irony of trying to con…

So your go to alternative is bullying. Well I would prefer to effect no change than to have to force it through with threats and intimidation. SJW is more of a pejorative term these days, I don't know anyone who uses it in a positive way and you are perhaps the first person I have seen that indicates they themselves are an SJW. My experience of those who the term applies to is generally negative and I cannot think of…

What would you do about George Wallace in 1963?

Leave aside the question of whether social justice today is comparable to the anti-segregation fight 50 years ago (reasonable people can disagree), and let's just think about segregation. The governor of Alabama literally says in his inauguration speech, "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

You have the option of going to Congress and passing a federal law, going over the governor's head, that makes segregation illegal. As a federal law, backed by the federal law-enforcement apparatus, this is the very incarnation of threats and intimidation. And Alabama certainly isn't about to integrate voluntarily.

Does your conscience bother you?

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#440

Post by latestrevision »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #418
latestrevision wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gay (& partnered, fwiw), and I'd have to agree that there certainly aren't any good arguments against gay marriage; at least, not any arguments we'd accept in a wealthy, industrialized, western society at the beginning of this millennium, but do keep in mind that the great, great majority of the world does not agree with that assessment. So, what makes an argument legitimate? In order for one to suggest that ther…

In order for one to suggest that there is no legitimate argument against gay marriage, you'd have to rationalize what it is that we in the west know better than those living in less-wealthy, less-industrialized societies outside our corner of the globe. Most of those other societies incorporate substantial religious influence in their legislative and/or judicial processes. It doesn't require "rationalization" to demo…

As an atheist, I agree, but asserting that the rationale behind prohibiting gay marriage is mostly religious isn't supported by evidence. More than a quarter of the world's population lives in countries that are majority-atheist without being any more supportive of gay marriage than those of us in western, more-religious countries.
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