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Why animals eat psychoactive plants

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Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#151
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I mean really? Of course it changes the value of the article- articles written by unreliable sources are less valuable than those written by reliable ones. Or does it not matter as long as you like the message? If the CIA/NSA comes out and says "Oh it's ok y'all should totally get stoned" does that mean you trust them all of a sudden? It's no wonder every decent novel about a dystopean society has some type o…

Yes, really. Your argument is why people who have been to jail are unable to gain employment. People make mistakes.

To expand on your analogy, it seems to me he's saying that someone who embezzles money and goes to jail for it shouldn't be able to get a job handling money when he's released from jail. And I'd agree with that sentiment.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#152
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That has a strange bias then for people that are at trivial risk of having their life go up in flames. Howard Hughes, for instance, used hundreds of mg of morphine equivalent a day for decades. But being rich beyond belief, it's not like he'd ever encounter issues with supply. But most people, if told of such levels of use, would consider that an "addiction". It'd certainly be a strong physical dependence.

I think your conclusion is correct, but not a problem, precisely because concepts like 'addiction', as well as 'mental disorder' are contextually defined. ADHD might not be a problem if you're living in a wild environment and roaming the woods as a primary activity. Schizophrenia might not be an issue of you live in a society where you're considered a 'seer/prophet' and taken care of by the community for your 'valuab…

keep in mind that the goal of criminalizing a substance..is to help people function in whatever society their in

In 2015, I'm not so sure about that. The roots of America's cannabis prohibition are firmly rooted in bald-faced racism, for instance, with a side order of not wanting to annoy textile manufacturers.

I sincerely think that more harm is caused by any attempt to bring the justice system to bear on what people choose to put into their own body. Any objective analysis would come to the same conclusion - the fact that it hasn't suggests ulterior motives.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#153

I’ve always found it fascinating that people don’t perceive socially sanctioned drugs as drugs at all. Saying “drugs and alcohol” to me is like saying “sandwiches and hamburgers”. A person can drink a cup of coffee in the morning, smoke a cigarette on their lunch break, and drink a couple glasses of wine in the evening, and the only thing that keeps them from being called a “drug addict” is that these particular drug…

David E.H. Jones pointed out that the socially sanctioned drugs have something in common: they all taste bad. Or at least, they have a taste that is unappealing to children, and then must be acquired by special effort. Coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol: all taste pretty awful to a ten-year-old.

A lot of drugs are unpleasant to administer. It's difficult to think of something more unpleasant than injecting yourself with impure narcotics. Weed smells and tastes awful; stoners end up liking the scent only because it's associated with the experience.

Also, I think it's pretty easy to make all of those taste good, with the exception of tobacco (and menthol cigarettes take the worst of the bite out of that, too). Sweetened coffee, flavored dip, sweet mixers to go along with vodka, etc.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#154
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can drink two glasses of red wine every day of your life and if you are healthy adult male of average weight, this will likely extend your life and improve your health. For a woman it is down to one glass. You can drink a glass of coffee or a cup of tea every day of your life and this will also probably improve your life and your health. Trying doing that with cocaine or heroin. Actually do not try it because you…

> You can drink two glasses of red wine every day of your life and if you are healthy adult male of average weight, this will likely extend your life and improve your health. FWIW, I've never had alcohol, but after reading advice like this in the popular press, I asked both my cardiologist and GP whether this would be a good addition to my life. Both said there probably wasn't any harm in it if I was already doing it…

However, did they tell you anything of substance when they said to improve your diet? Unfortunately, I know all too well that proper nutrition is tossed aside in medical school. Why? I'll tell you my hypothesis. I think it might just be correct. Proper nutrition would cause most people, especially those with chronic conditions, to get better very quickly and stay that way. Guess who would lose a lot of money if that happened? And guess who also has their puppet strings tied to most parts of the medical industry?

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#155
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the 4 founders of Johns Hopkins Hospital was addicted to both cocaine and morphine and was able to remain functional while addicted for the rest of his life. I think it's easy to mix up the effects of the illegality of certain drugs with the effects of the drugs themselves. Impurities and poor injection hygiene are probably a large part of the health effects of these two drugs currently, and they are a result…

There are outliers and exceptions to lots of things, but that does not necessarily mean that therefore it's appropriate to extrapolate to the population at large. When people say window washers should wear safety equipment do we also say, well, there have been cases where window washers have fallen ten stories and survived, in order to color the hazards? There are also very many legal prescription drugs to which when…

> Drugs are like gambling

I agree. In that the majority of people have some fun out of it, a small minority get addicted and need help, and legalization leads to massive tax incomes for the government.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way? A hamburger is a sandwich, and alcohol is a drug. A hot dog is a sausage, too.

Sandwich isn't necessarily a hamburger though. Also, doesn't a hot dog refer to the whole package? That'd make it different from a sausage.

I find it sad that you're being voted down for having different cultural associations and definitions than another poster.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#157
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confusing intoxicants with stimulants. Noone accidentally ran over a kid or beat up his wife because he drank too many cups of coffee or smoked one too many cigarettes. Alcohol on the other hand... edit: If you are going to say that cocaine is primarily a stimulatant, You can't even compare the harmful effects/addictiveness of cocaine with coffee or cigarettes.

True. 6,000 people died of cocaine abuse in 2006. Another statistic said 17,000 died in 2000 from all illicit drugs. Now surely moderate cocaine abuse is causing deaths in people who aren't known addicts. But tobacco is certainly far far worse at 443,000 annual deaths. Occasional responsible use of hard drugs is likely not that bad for you.

To be fair, the tobacco issue is due to the delivery method of smoking rather than the active ingredient (nicotine). On its own, nicotine is an addictive but relatively mild stimulant in normal doses. People desire it for the typical stimulant effects (energy, focus, wakefulness, appetite suppression) but as long as the predominant delivery method involves the repeated inhalation of carbon monoxide, lung-coating tars, particulates, and hundreds of other hazardous compounds, it comes with a terrible burden to health.

If everyone had been smoking coffee grounds to ingest caffeine all these years, I'd imagine there would be similar issues around caffeine. Thankfully, there are other delivery methods for nicotine which are more in line with those for caffeine but they are often prohibitively expensive (inhalers, gum, etc) or under a lot of pressure from tobacco companies and those who produce the gum, patches, and inhalers (nicotine vaporizers commonly referred to as "e-cigarettes").

I think that as long as people derive a benefit from nicotine (like caffeine) there should be a lot more support for these more novel delivery methods that don't involve the inhalation of burning leaves. You can argue that anything habit-forming is negative and undesirable but as with coffee or tea, people often find it worth the tradeoff of potential blood pressure issues common to stimulants.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#158
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? Does it change the value of this recently published article because of previous bad behaviour? Keep your logical fallacies to yourself.

Really? I mean really? Of course it changes the value of the article- articles written by unreliable sources are less valuable than those written by reliable ones. Or does it not matter as long as you like the message? If the CIA/NSA comes out and says "Oh it's ok y'all should totally get stoned" does that mean you trust them all of a sudden? It's no wonder every decent novel about a dystopean society has some type o…

If it's truly an unreliable or incorrect source then you should be able to find your argument against what he's saying from his words and not from his person. It's a logical fallacy[0] for a reason.

[0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#159
post #100
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that one of the requirements for addiction was that you were willing to let the rest of your life go up in flames to get your next "fix." People definitely bandy about the word "addiction" for things that are somewhat less than that. E.g. not many people withdraw from those around them to get their next caffeine fix. (It's worth noting that this doesn't necessarily apply to just drugs. WoW-addiction falls i…

Smoking is losing a lot of its social acceptance lately and for alcohol, well, I think we all know what happened during the years it lost its acceptance.

I think alcohol is a horrid drug on the body, and I look back at the Prohibition Era and it looks like the average person breaking the law was just looking for a good time, but I have a feeling a lot where self medicating at the time?

Alcohol is a weird drug that affects so many parts of the brain; I don't think it's just coincidence that it's the drug of choice for so many people who have mental disorders?

I know for myself, when I had my breakdown in my late twenties--alcohol is the only drug that really seemed to make me feel normal(a least for awhile). I went to various Psychiatrists and was prescribed the usual regime of tri, and hetrocyclic antidepressants--none worked in the slightest in my case. I finally found Klonopin. Yea, it worked at first, but was not better than alcohol. I know Klonopin has a long half life, but in my experience the effects wore off pretty quick?

My point is I feel a lot of people abuse alcohol because the other drugs just don't work very well. I remember a Psychiatrist telling me I wish I could prescribe more Klonopin, so you didn't need to drink a six pack a day, but I can't. I'm afraid of the load on you liver. He was right, and I'm glad he didn't increase the dosage of Klonopin--I think? I really didn't have a say in the matter.

But the anxiety went on for years and honestly effected my life and career. I went on to become an Alcoholic.

I got to the point where I gave up, but didn't want to blow out my liver(I had a medical backround, and saw just how horrid alcohol was to the liver.) I saw someone die from liver failure, and it was Hell. It was beyond the worse misery I have ever seen, and it went on for days.

I knew I was a alcoholic, and Psychotropic medications were not helping me so I just decided to keep my drinking down to only the times I truly needed it(that meant no partying, no drinks at dinner, etc.) I was a drug I used to treat my symptoms. I stayed away from hard liquor. Just medicated with beer and wine.

Well years later--my career is toast, but I'am still alive. Most days were a pain in the ass, but I got through it, and had some good days. If anyone reads this who is suffering from an anxiety related disorder; I can honestly state that the my level of anxiety did get better with the natural aging process. If you are controlling panic attacks with alcohol--only drink enough to stop the paints attack. In my case 2-3 drinks would stop a panic attack if I timed it right.

My worse years were the 90's up through around 2005. Back in the ninties I could get away with a little bit of alcohol on my breath. I couldn't imagine self medicating today--where alcohol is so demonized in many circles, and Cops don't take any sympathy. "Just lock him up even if even though he blew under .08 percent. He probally has something else in his blood stream, and through synergy, and our narrative, we can get a conviction?"

The Psychiatriactic profession has failed us. Very few drug companies are working on new Psychiatric drugs. No wonder people self medicate? What I find ironic is right now it is harder than ever to get SSDI for a Phychiatric disorder.

No I am not on SSDI, but would be homeless if I didn't get very lucky a few investments early on.(absolute blind luck on that money). I got lucky. I really should be homeless.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#160
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who have been diagnosed with something, and then pursue alternative lines of therapy, usually manage to use those alternative therapies responsibly, because they are actually thinking of them using the mental framing of "treatment for condition" rather than "fun recreational substance I seem to enjoy even more than other people." A lot of recreational drugs are fine if approached in a medical context. Amphetam…

> People who have been diagnosed with something, and then pursue alternative lines of therapy, usually manage to use those alternative therapies responsibly, because they are actually thinking of them using the mental framing of "treatment for condition" rather than "fun recreational substance I seem to enjoy even more than other people." Are you sure? Prescription drug abuse is rampant. And in my experience, most of…

As noted, some drugs do create genuine chemical dependence, even when you're trying to be responsible with them. Heroin is the default example, and is now mostly considered a recreational drug because of this (i.e. it is no longer considered safe to prescribe at any dose), but that recreational "market" grew out of what was originally prescription drug abuse.

The benzodiazepine class of drugs also has a chemical dependence problem, and serves as a good example of the medical establishment's reaction to prescription drug abuse. When prescribing a benzo-class drug nowadays, your doctor will work with you to create a dosing schedule that includes its own "taper-off" period (and perhaps secondary therapies to counter withdrawal effects) to avoid addictive potential. They will also try to find a drug which not only fits the effect profile they want, but which you can safely afford out-of-pocket, or they will attempt to get you on a manufacturer's discount plan, and so forth, to ensure you never encounter the "I can't get my dose this month, but I'm at the height of treatment and addicted so I have to do something else" problem.

In the modern day, just prescribing the drug instead of the treatment program as a whole is medically irresponsible.

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