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SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

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Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#181
post #118

I'm an American with a left-wing upbringing and still broadly left-wing politics. When I graduated from architecture school in 2001, I wanted some international experience, so I moved to India. What I saw there utterly transformed my preconceptions of sweatshops -- because I saw it before the sweatshops began opening. One of the projects I was helping to design was a "science city" tech campus. The workers lived in a…

>The standard wage was roughly $3 per MONTH.....

I am from India and I dont see $3 per Month wage anywhere! You can find atleast 2$ per day as minimum wage since years.

Either I have misunderstood what you said or you have written something wrong.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#182

It's funny to me that the same HN continually bashing Google for being evil, Uber for being sexist, and startups in general for treating workers like slaves, is the same HN that generalizes and rationalizes this type of behavior. We complain that minimum wage workers here aren't paid enough in the US, and yet we're OK with people making $3/day, pushed to their limit by a boss that might as well be a warden. This may…

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Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#183

It's funny to me that the same HN continually bashing Google for being evil, Uber for being sexist, and startups in general for treating workers like slaves, is the same HN that generalizes and rationalizes this type of behavior. We complain that minimum wage workers here aren't paid enough in the US, and yet we're OK with people making $3/day, pushed to their limit by a boss that might as well be a warden. This may…

How is this indentured servitude? Indentured servitude is when you contract out your labor in advance, without the ability to void the contract without legal repercussions (usually imprisonment). Being stuck in a job due to circumstances may be unfortunate, but it's not indenture.

You should have seen these areas before the sweatshops. Conditions were substantially worse, but because most westerners historically either didn't care or were unaware, it's easy to get the false impression that these workers are worse off than they were before the sweatshops. In reality the sweatshops are a huge improvement.

Consider that, for the most part, jobs that existed in impoverished countries pre-industrialization still exist, yet most workers choose the sweatshops when given the chance.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#184

Honestly I would imagine those 3 Millennials having an issue with most hard work. I live in Asia, I look though a different lens, - Imagine being loaded on to a truck and brought to factory everyday -- You mean a free ride to work? - Imagine your kids roaming the factory floor -- No child care costs? - Imagine having to working 12 hours a day -- I can pay for my kids to go to school ? - Imagine being stuck in a facto…

That is such bullshit. I lived in Phnom Penh. That "free ride" you refer to is the most dangerous part of their day. There are lot of accidents with these trucks. Your other points reek of privilege and lack of actual understanding of how these people live their lives.

I believe you, but it's also true that in many parts of the world, those "trucks" are actually air conditioned buses.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#186
post #118

I'm an American with a left-wing upbringing and still broadly left-wing politics. When I graduated from architecture school in 2001, I wanted some international experience, so I moved to India. What I saw there utterly transformed my preconceptions of sweatshops -- because I saw it before the sweatshops began opening. One of the projects I was helping to design was a "science city" tech campus. The workers lived in a…

That doesn't really explain the working conditions so much as justify them. What strikes you when working in emerging markets is just how, well, emerging they are. A lot of things are just inefficient. There needs to be more pressure to live up to universal human rights. Not only because it's the right thing to do, but because it puts pressure on these markets to get more sophisticated.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#187
I lived in Phnom Penh where this was filmed. The trucks carrying workers at the end of the day is a normal sight in the outskirts of the city. The average pay for this type of job is about $100 depending on how much extra overtime you put in.

How to fix it? I have some ideas but that would be on a much smaller scale. Basically a more direct model. The fashion industry needs to be disrupted and consumers must get more information about how brands produce clothes.

The problem today is that the government in Cambodia is extremely corrupt. They can't be relied on to improve conditions or put up the minimum wage (well they have a little bit but it is still under what can be considered a liveable wage). The big brands however point the finger at the government (H&M, Nike, Puma all put out press releases that blame laws and government practices). They say it is the job of government to improve. They sit in their nice offices in New York and Stockholm, in cities that were built over a long time with a long history of democracy and with a society that was built bit for bit. That took a long time. It is incomparable to the state of Cambodia (which started on a blank slate 30 years ago or so). Thus the government there is not qualified to make the required changes. The brands however are. They are in countries with good laws and fairly decent labour practices. They should take responsibility. They should not hide behind their suppliers. They can easily define contracts that require suppliers to have better minimum standards and wages for workers. It would not mean much difference in profits for these companies. A lady makes a shirt and earns $3/day, does it really matter if she is paid $5/day? Would the $50 shirt cost much more at the store? Nope.

I think the most pragmatic solution is that developed countries introduce taxes for clothes that are not ethically produced. That $15 t-shirt from H&M should be $17 and with $2 clearly labeled as non-ethical tax on the price tag.

Also I see some commentators here saying it's much better to work in a factory than to work on the rice fields. 20 years ago you could earn enough as a small farmer. Today that is not the case. Also the rising cost in Cambodia and elsewhere makes the small pay even more a problem than before. The workers earn $100. Rent is easily $30. I used to eat lunch at the market every day in Phnom Penh. It was about $1.50 for noodle soup. You can get a cheaper meal (I'm white and I added some better quality meat). But add that up. And consider you need to buy a towel. That's easily $4. A new pan? $5 for a cheaper one. I lived in Phnom Penh in 2012 and then in 2014. Even I as a foreigner noticed the inflation.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But poor children still need to eat, sleep and it takes a while to replace them when they wear out. Machines on the other hand can run 24/7, on just electricity, and there are both practical and economical systems already in place that will let you replace broken ones with new ones quickly. I think machines will be cheaper long before sweatshops run out of children.

Also: higher quality and a feel-good brand factor "we don't use child labor anymore".

That has been tried and didn't work. Neither did cheaper machines. Remember that textile machines pretty much gave birth to industrial automation, so the technology is as tried and cheap as it gets. Still not enough.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is such bullshit. I lived in Phnom Penh. That "free ride" you refer to is the most dangerous part of their day. There are lot of accidents with these trucks. Your other points reek of privilege and lack of actual understanding of how these people live their lives.

I believe you, but it's also true that in many parts of the world, those "trucks" are actually air conditioned buses.

You have to go in a tourist bus to get an a/c bus in Cambodia. The trucks for these workers have full natural a/c and traffic pollution nicely blended in.

Also note that these workers are mostly from rural areas. Where educational level is very low.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#190
post #185

Unlike Capitalism, Globalization is Zero-sum WITHOUT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

Actually I think you'll find Globalisation is not zero sum. It hasn't made ordinary people much better off in the west but has transformed living standards in places like Asia.
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