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SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

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Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#171

Post by rmxt »

tomp wrote: post #155
rmxt wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that is true, that does not make the forced migration and continued subjugation of slaves in the American South through the 19th century any less deplorable. Slavery is slavery. Your implicit acceptance of the "lesser of two evils" for something as serious as slavery is disturbing. We aren't even talking about the "hidden" conditions of working poor in foreign countries, we are talking about institutions that…

>disturbing Be disturbed then. It's possible, and in my view necessary, to rationally compare two non-optimal alternatives, even if an even better alternative is both possible and probable. As Aristotle allegedly said, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." And discussing a concept doesn't imply accepting/endorsing it.

While one might be able to give a fair and balanced take on "non-optimal alternatives," I frankly believe that a bad idea, or at least bad historiography, doesn't deserve a very big seat at the table of discussion. You paint the argument as a contrast of two, and walk away from the conversation: that's not a very rational, nor fair, comparison.

...while we are quoting Aristotle:

"Since then some men are slaves by nature, and others are freemen, it is clear that where slavery is advantageous to any one, then it is just to make him a slave." [0]

Clearly "entertaining thoughts without accepting them" isn't enough on it's own to lead to sound, just and fair policy-making or historical narratives.

[0] http://www.gutenberg.org/files/6762/6762-h/6762-h.htm#link2H...

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#172

Post by pagnotta »

wahsd wrote: post #127
foobar2020 wrote: post #98

I really don't understand this problem. Why does everybody think people in Asia are forced to do this kind of work? These people would be incredibly poor if not for western companies. Actually most of them would die being children as a result of their poverty: malnutrition, accidents, preventable diseases such as polio or measles. Go now and check what was China's annual GDP per capita in Mao Zedong times. Just see i…

And black people benefited from the privilege of being slaves to white, civilized people. amirite? WARNING: The following is going to cause cognitive dissonance in many people, even among the rather intelligent people here. Don't fool yourselves, the conditions in Asia under which people make "stuff" for you, which you don't even value, for $0.50 per hour is nothing more or less than slavery. It is the same kind of s…

At have been living in China for 8 years, have visited dozens of factories, speak fluently Mandarim and Cantonese, and I have never heard about someone working for 0.5 USD an hour...Actually I saw a salary like that mentioned in my Chinese Language book, but that book was written in the 70's. Vietnan is another story, they may very well work for something like that, but life is much cheap there. All considered, I think the situation in Asia, for the poorest, is much better than in my home South America, and may be better than at US ghettos (there are no guns around here, there is less domestic violence, less addiction, less bullying, less discrimination) I have seen slavery in the deep South America, but not yet in Asia.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#173

Post by tootie »

imron wrote: post #135
tootie wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not wrong, but it does kinda miss the point. The argument isn't we should stop buying and let them go back to living off the land. The argument is they should be paid a living wage to do work that has value. If the work came back to first-world factories, they'd have to pay at least 10X the wages, so just agreeing to 1.5X or 2X is still a bargain.

This is a really tricky problem though, because what happens when factory jobs bring in more money than those that require further education and training? What you get is people dropping out of school to go and work in those factories, which then only goes on to perpetuate the poverty cycle. I don't have any good solutions, but I do know the answer isn't as simple as just doubling factory workers' wages.

Nah. That Flappy Bird guy made a small fortune even by first world standards. It drove him insane too.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#174

Post by sleepyhead »

macarthy12 wrote: post #124

Honestly I would imagine those 3 Millennials having an issue with most hard work. I live in Asia, I look though a different lens, - Imagine being loaded on to a truck and brought to factory everyday -- You mean a free ride to work? - Imagine your kids roaming the factory floor -- No child care costs? - Imagine having to working 12 hours a day -- I can pay for my kids to go to school ? - Imagine being stuck in a facto…

That is such bullshit. I lived in Phnom Penh. That "free ride" you refer to is the most dangerous part of their day. There are lot of accidents with these trucks. Your other points reek of privilege and lack of actual understanding of how these people live their lives.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#176

Post by sleepyhead »

bruna597 wrote: post #44

Something that bothers me is the fact that even though they have cried on the show and said that they were going to do something to help, if you search for them on the internet, its clear that they aren't doing anything about it! Even the girl who has a fashion blog, she is still writing about the trademarks that use this kind of abusive job to make their clothes...

The were active in debates in Norway after the show. They have raised awareness. Also it is very difficult to find ethical producers of clothes. Finding info as a consumer is difficult and anything mass produced share these issues.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#178

Post by praptak »

nkoren wrote: post #118

I'm an American with a left-wing upbringing and still broadly left-wing politics. When I graduated from architecture school in 2001, I wanted some international experience, so I moved to India. What I saw there utterly transformed my preconceptions of sweatshops -- because I saw it before the sweatshops began opening. One of the projects I was helping to design was a "science city" tech campus. The workers lived in a…

Yeah, yeah, the alternative is much worse, end of argument. Or is it? Perhaps these kind of movies are not about just banning sweatshops but rather about something more general, like for example why the alternative exists in the first place?

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#179

Post by sleepyhead »

RaffRaff wrote: post #46

That's why I keep clear of "ecommerce import from China" businesses. I just cant do it knowing people suffer while I profit

I don't think there is much difference between those and big brands. Same with clothes. There is no difference between a super low cost brand, H&M and Versace. Or actually there is, the designer brands have often proven to be manufactured in even worse conditions.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#180

Post by SnacksOnAPlane »

nkoren wrote: post #118

I'm an American with a left-wing upbringing and still broadly left-wing politics. When I graduated from architecture school in 2001, I wanted some international experience, so I moved to India. What I saw there utterly transformed my preconceptions of sweatshops -- because I saw it before the sweatshops began opening. One of the projects I was helping to design was a "science city" tech campus. The workers lived in a…

Just because conditions are substantially better for certain people doesn't mean they're acceptable.

I mean, take a country that hasn't been "globalized" yet, and people still live in small fishing villages, basically living at subsistence levels but not overcrowded and basically self-sufficient.

Then industry comes in, and cities coalesce, and people go to the city for its economic promises. They work in these horrible construction jobs, and send money home.

Then they're offered a job in a $1/day sweatshop, and they jump at it, because it's better than what they were doing.

Aren't they still much, much worse off than before they moved to the city in the first place?

I don't know, maybe I have an idealized view of the pre-globalized world. But it seems like we're treating the move from one horrible situation to another slightly-less-horrible situation as a big win, when it's still way behind how people lived pre-globalization.

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