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Windows 10: Re-Crappifying Windows 8

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Re: Windows 10: Re-Crappifying Windows 8

#51

Post by Zancarius »

Rusky wrote: post #43
dragonwriter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, here's the thing: Windows are useful. I'm increasingly convinced that overlapping Windows are not particularly useful (they are better than one-thing-maximized-is-the-only-option), but tiled windows are very useful.

I'm torn between tiled and overlapping windows. A lot of the time I just don't have a big enough screen to go fully tiled, because it forces things to squish when I would rather just keep one partially visible underneath (e.g. a browser window, a text editor, and a terminal). One thing that makes overlapping windows infinitely nicer for me is a feature in a lot of Linux WMs where window borders "catch" on other windo…

> One thing that makes overlapping windows infinitely nicer for me is a feature in a lot of Linux WMs where window borders "catch" on other windows and the edge of the screen when being moved or resized. That, and having a key to move windows from anywhere, rather than just the titlebar.

I also like the feature of using the scroll wheel to change window position (above/below), especially if I'm browsing and have a few related windows open on a desktop. I didn't realize how much I missed the feature until I tried Plasma 5 on KDE briefly (it has it, too, but it didn't migrate my configuration).

Re: Windows 10: Re-Crappifying Windows 8

#52

Post by LukasMathis »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #29
alyx wrote: post #11

I don't think he realizes that he's critiquing and reviewing a preview OS.

I don't even think he's reviewing Windows 10 in its current preview form. Look at the picture he uses to show off the start menu, then compare it to the start menu in any other recent Windows 10 demonstration. Notice any differences?

The difference is probably that Microsoft's Windows 10 demonstrations show a manually customized system, while my screenshot shows what it looks like by default, on a newly installed system? Other than that, I'm not sure how I could not be running the current Windows 10 preview, because, as far as I know, it's the only build that supports continuum.

Re: Windows 10: Re-Crappifying Windows 8

#54

Post by LukasMathis »

dragonwriter wrote: post #14
Filligree wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, here's the thing: Windows are useful . An UI which pretends you shouldn't use them isn't good for anything complicated, when you use more than one application at a time. Hierarchical start menus are also useful, for that matter.

> However, here's the thing: Windows are useful. I'm increasingly convinced that overlapping Windows are not particularly useful (they are better than one-thing-maximized-is-the-only-option), but tiled windows are very useful.

Yes, precisely!

Re: Windows 10: Re-Crappifying Windows 8

#56

Post by wvenable »

Amezarak wrote: post #47
wvenable wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't like Windows 8 UI because it was a change, and they don't like that they are changing it back. No, people don't like the Windows 8 UI because it's terrible on the desktop. Comparatively, the classic Windows UI is terrible on touch-screen devices. Even combining both interfaces on one OS isn't terrible. But in Windows 8 they both bleed into each other in a way that is not good. Windows 10 combines them…

> No, people don't like the Windows 8 UI because it's terrible on the desktop. I use Windows 8.1 on the desktop every day - since Windows 8 was released - and I honestly can't understand why people have such huge problems with it unless it is just about change. I had my first impressions of it in a VM when it was RTM. At that time I did think it was pretty ugly and I got really frustrated (i.e., I was cussing up a st…

> I use Windows 8.1 on the desktop every day

I also use Windows 8.1 everyday, I'm typing this message on it.

> Almost everything in Windows 8 works the same. For example, I see frequent complaints about how terrible the Start Screen is for desktop users. I don't think it's very pretty, but it works almost exactly the same as the old start menu.

My father-in-law somehow figured out he could launch applications by going into Program Files folder in explorer and running programs from there. He did that because he could not figure out how to find stuff on the start screen. I was impressed with his ingenuity; I just replaced the start screen with ClassicShell. I don't have any metro apps, I have 2 24" monitors, so the start screen is ridiculous.

> Other than that, there are plenty of desktop-centric improvements.

I agree. Those could have all been in Windows 7.1 though.

> For the most part, the average desktop user is almost never even going to see the Metro interface.

Except for the charms bar, hot corners, the Wifi setup panel, the login screen, the start screen, the associated app selector, the metro apps with associations to common file types, etc.

Re: Windows 10: Re-Crappifying Windows 8

#57

Post by zamalek »

isnotchicago wrote: post #39
zamalek wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, it wasn't. It isn't. Disclaimer: Emphasis on SUBJECTIVE before you indicate my opinion is wrong because you have a different opinion. That's pretty-much what subjective means. I thought HN was smarter than this. Agreed, it's subjective. This is change aversion, not loss aversion. Humans don't like change, even if it is good for them. People don't like Windows 8 UI because it was a change, and they don't like th…

There is a lot more to good design than big click targets. Even infinitely large targets are useless if the user does not know where they are.

> Even infinitely large targets are useless if the user does not know where they are.

That I can completely agree with. The tutorial that they introduced helps, but I think something (not sure what) would have helped.

Re: Windows 10: Re-Crappifying Windows 8

#58

Post by asyncwords »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #29
alyx wrote: post #11

I don't think he realizes that he's critiquing and reviewing a preview OS.

I don't even think he's reviewing Windows 10 in its current preview form. Look at the picture he uses to show off the start menu, then compare it to the start menu in any other recent Windows 10 demonstration. Notice any differences?

Actually I think he is on the current Windows 10 build. Right now there's a button at the top-right of the start menu that switches it between full-screen and regular mode. This [1] is what it looks like on my system when full screen. It looks much worse in the article however, because the author only has three apps pinned to their start menu, and the three apps are in their 'medium' size rather than wide or large.

[1]: http://i.imgur.com/xKCH1td.png

Re: Windows 10: Re-Crappifying Windows 8

#59

Post by con-templative »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #12
engendered wrote: post #4

The whole bit on loss aversion (which is a tactic to undermine people's opinions by ascribing them to unproductive emotional reactions, rather than objective evaluations that have people liking Windows 8 less than 7), and then the "I don’t really see anything positive about going back to an interaction design originally devised in 1995", undermine the piece and do make it seem more like a rant than an unbiased evalua…

> Windows 8 on the desktop was objectively terrible. Not a chance. IMO, not only was the the best Windows from a technical perspective, I quite liked the interface. I use Linux mostly for philosophical and technical reasons (much easier to program in Linux), but Windows 8 has great UI.

> Windows 8 has great UI.

This usability expert disagrees, and explains his position in detail: http://www.nngroup.com/articles/windows-8-disappointing-usab...

Re: Windows 10: Re-Crappifying Windows 8

#60

Post by wvenable »

zamalek wrote: post #50
wvenable wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The charms bar, hot corners, the Wifi setup panel, the login screen, the start screen, the associated app selector, the metro apps with associations to common file types, etc. I've personally turned off most of it and replaced the start menu with ClassicShell but it took a while. It's a pretty nice OS if you can completely hide metro.

> hot corners I hate that too. Disabled it. That's my opinion of the feature. However, that in addition to: > charms bar (Which I never use) is technically good UX design. Corners are super easy to position your mouse in. 100 out of 100 times you try and put your mouse cursor into the corner you will achieve that without fail. Both corner gestures (really hate them) and charms bar use that extensively. > Wifi setup p…

> (Which I never use) is technically good UX design. Corners are super easy to position your mouse in.

I have 2 24" monitors, 3840x1080 pixels. The corners are actually pretty far from where ever my mouse is right now, and not all that easy to hit on purpose. Accidentally, all the time. With a touchpad it's even worse -- they were always being activated when I didn't want them to be. And there is literally nothing in that bar I need to use.

> The Wifi panel is actually great UX because the process of setting up Wifi does not bounce all over the screen (as it did previously).

It's an overlay which means it floats over your work while you're waiting for the Wifi connection to fail. It's just entirely unnecessary UI which doesn't fit in with anything else on the desktop.

> Fitt's Law, look it up.

Fitt's law is frankly bullshit these days. I have way too many pixels for it to make sense and I've had 20+ years of using a mouse.

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