Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece • Hacker News Board

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#201

Post by imarg » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 12:32 AM UTC

UweSchmidt wrote: post #105

bostich wrote: post #54

I am German and have had a very negative opinion of Tsipras. He makes some very good points in this letter and his view seems to be consistent. I can understand his position and my opinion of him has improved a bit after reading the letter. Nevertheless I see no solution, only 3 possible bad outcomes: 1. Europe loans more money to Greece and we can be pretty certain that they can't pay it back. 2. Europe gifts money…

How about 4. Greece leaves the EU. There could still be favourable trade agreements and some currency stabilizing etc. so it's not the end of the world, but it would be a wakeup call for everyone to treat their finances a little more seriously. German yellow press also mentioned various social programs in Greece that can only be described as frivolous even by social state standards. It's harder to be sympathetic with…

Yellow press, you said it.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#202

Post by imarg » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 12:52 AM UTC

jcfrei wrote: post #76

Tsirpas article is as shallow as it is boring. His statement "Greece's debt is currently unsustainable and will never be serviced" is a typical, bold, populist statement, twisting reality. Greece's debt would indeed be sustainable, if it wasn't for Tsipras' recent claims that they would rehire some recently laid of government workers and stop the privatization process. The debt is serviceable, it just isn't repayable…

The "rehiring" refers actually to only a relatively small number of employees (~3500) that were unlawfully fired. They went to court and won their case but the previous government still refused to take them back.

And because most of them were actually suspended and not really fired they were still receiving 75% of their wages. This means that financially speaking the extra cost is a drop in the ocean.

I do not know if Syriza's politics/policies will be successful but keep in mind that most of what is circulating in media, both in Greece and abroad, are usually half-truths and sensationalist journalism.

When the crisis started a lot was written about Greece's big government and its spending. After the dust settled down and more dispassionate voices were heard, a good look at the data showed that Greece's government and spending was more or less around the EU average. But by then no one was paying attention.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#203

Post by galfarragem » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 1:04 AM UTC

panarky wrote: post #108

vijayboyapati wrote: post #20

This one sentence sums up what I think is the fundamental problem: "An insolvency problem was thus dealt with as if it were a case of illiquidity." That is, the problem isn't some ephemeral panic where people are temporarily unwilling to lend. The problem is there are massive capital losses that have yet to be acknowledged. The problem is that Euro politicians believe that by continuing to bankroll Greece they will s…

Why do news reports keep saying that Greece got bailed out? Let's say you lend $100,000 to my startup. I have to pay you $10,000 a year until the loan is paid off. I hire a thief as a CEO who gives the $100,000 to his friends and family, and my startup has nothing to show for it. Now my startup is bankrupt. I'm working as a waiter in a restaurant to pay the rent. I can't make my annual payments to you, much less pay…

It is not your lender's fault that you were careless and didn't audit your startup. While your CEO was making bad decisions you were having fun.

Now you think that your mistakes are your lender's responsability. Ok, just don't expect them, or anybody else, to lend you more..

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#204

Post by galfarragem » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 1:46 AM UTC

yxhuvud wrote: post #89

jahewson wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement about Germnay refusing to allow imports is manifestly false. The EU is a free trade area and its member states are not permitted to engage in such activities. The EU has its own courts to enforce such rules. It's certainly true that Germany is a net exporter: this is because of their ability and competitiveness in engineering and technology, combined with the fact that Germans are not big consumers and…

No, Germans are not more frugal than other people. The main issue behind lacklustre German consumption is that neither their wages nor their investment in infrastructure has kept pace with their productivity growth.

Completely agree. Just compare Athens or Lisbon subway with Berlin subway. It seems that Germany is the most poor of these countries.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#205

Post by jongraehl » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 3:19 AM UTC

stavros wrote: post #190

gaius wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on, have you been to Athens? Everyone drives a Porsche and wears a Rolex, but all the buildings are unfinished, because if they were they'd be taxed. Greece is a poor country weirdly full of rich people.

Everyone? Really? Because half of my friends are unemployed, and every single one has a university degree. And who starts building and then doesn't finish it because they don't want it to be taxed?

That's how it is in Mexico, too. They leave some unfinished faux-second-story attached to their building and never pay full property tax on the value of property-with-one-completed-story. Re: "who starts ..." why don't you search before you post?

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#206

Post by seliopou » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 3:21 AM UTC

mhd wrote: post #53

seliopou wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No politician ever writes their own Op-Eds, for any publication. That's what their staff, freelance ghostwriters, and political think tanks are there for.

I doubt that every country works on the same political scale as the US…

I assure you, it's an international standard. In fact, this is almost certainly ghostwritten by the finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#207

Post by jongraehl » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 3:26 AM UTC

Poor Greece. Exports so low. Wages and local prices so high. But nobody will hire anybody. They voted for the impossible. Better inject some more capital; they're expecting it.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#208

Post by peterfirefly » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 4:41 AM UTC

atmosx wrote: post #197

peterfirefly wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A state couldn't benefit from the Marshal plan without reforms, including collecting proper, truthful national statistics (through the forerunner institution to the OECD). The US didn't just hand out money willy-nilly. In the case of (West) Germany, they had lots of troops stationed in Germany who could accidentally break something if the country didn't happily reform practically everything.

No one is against reform in Greece. Literally no one (except maybe the far-left which is less than 5% of the population). The thing is that all the reforms proposed by the Troika as of today were absolutely against boosting any form of healthy growth. The troika actively supported the governments which are responsible for Greece's troubles and extra-ordinary debt. That says a lot IMHO. I didn't get the feeling that t…

Are you telling me that the EU was against raising the retirement age for public servants? Or against firing them by the hundred thousands? Or reducing the pension for some of them? Or maybe stopping the pensions at most a year or three after people have died?

Are you telling me that only 5% of the Greek voters were against these things? Are you telling me that only 5% of the Greek voters are on the far left? Really?

Do you always lie this shamelessly?

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#209

Post by JamesBarney » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 4:56 AM UTC

bobcostas55 wrote: post #174

JamesBarney wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually that is true. He was referring to Greece having a budget surplus, not a plan. They missed their target surplus but still had a budget surplus for 2014 of near 2 billion euros. http://www.wsj.com/articles/greece-misses-target-on-budget-s...

The current finance minister says they cooked the books: yanisvaroufakis.eu/2014/04/24/greek-statistics-are-back-primary-deficit-presented-as-surplus-with-eurostats-seal-of-approval/

Your link is about a 2013 budget surplus and not 2014. The reason eurostat did those adjustment was too eliminate one off expenditures that would not continue. And they didn't continue in 2014.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#210

Post by bibabo » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 6:50 AM UTC

peterfirefly wrote: post #187

bibabo wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. The Baltic states, Poland, everyone except the southern countries (and I assume Spain with a thriving economy in 2014/2015 will join the club when unemployment drops) is on the same page. But as an excellent demagogue Tsipras knows he needs a simple enemy (Germany) to rally the mob. 2. Yes Germany defaulted, but did not make it it's modus operandi. Excellent that you've brought up the Marshall plan: The Marshall p…

On the other hand, most of the German war reparations after WWI should probably be repaid. The exception is whatever Germany paid to Belgium, which should be augmented with reparations from France and Great Britain. (And I assume you meant Balkan instead of Baltic.)

I agree Germany should pay war reperations. As should Greece to Turkey and the Balkan for their invasions there, as should France to Germany for the napoleonic wars, Sweden to my hometown where they've killed nearly everyone and razed the city, the US for Vietnam to Laos. All the colonial powers should pay what they stole from their colonies, the UK to India, France to Africa. The US to the Philipines. France and the UK should pay and clean up the mess they've created in the middle east. I totally agree.