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Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

syriza.net.gr

11–20 of 249 posts

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#12
post #4

tldr; Instead of taking new loans and servicing our existing debt, we'd like new loans and NOT have to service our existing debt. EDIT: To those responding "he didn't ask for loans" in the last line he's asking for a "European New Deal"... what else could that be besides new loans or a straight-on gifting of more money?

I am having a hard time getting that from this message:

>My party, and I personally, disagreed fiercely with the May 2010 loan agreement not because you, the citizens of Germany, did not give us enough money but because you gave us much, much more than you should have and our government accepted far, far more than it had a right to.

>Our task is not to confront our partners. It is not to secure larger loans or, equivalently, the right to higher deficits.

There will have to be some money injected somewhere in Greece, but not in the same way, and the point is to get away from loans.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#13
post #6

Tsipras' spoken english is very limited, it is unlikely he wrote this himself.

It was probably translated from Greek, why is it a problem?

Yeah, it's reasonable that a leader should do all his writing in his native language and have it professionally translated. Why would it be any other way?

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#15
It's perhaps prudent to distinguish between the German people and the German politicians. It's my feeling that the average German would have suggested NOT to extend large loans to Greece. It is the EU (and German, French, Italian and so on) politicians that believed that in the grand scheme of the Euro, it would be the best cause of action.

The sad part is that the loans to Greece perhaps wasn't so much about Greece, as it was about Spain, Ireland and perhaps even Italy. If we ignored everything else, then letting Greece leave the Euro, rather than offering large loans and unrealistic terms, most likely would have hurt neither the Euro, nor the EU. In the real world, letting Greece leave would mean that investors and speculators would start to question the dedication to the Euro, given that Spain or Italy (much larger economies) might be forced to leave the EU next.

I'm not an economist, so I might be totally wrong, but for a regular person an investment (of this scale) in Greece was obviously a bad move, at least in hindsight. It's sad for Greece, but they where just casualties of their own politicians and a Euro they should never have been allowed to be part of in the first place.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#16
A CNN article from 2010 referenced 2008 government documents that said "6 in 10 Greeks don't pay income taxes" source: http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/12/31/greece.taxes/

I don't know what the rate of tax evasion is in other western countries, but I'm willing to wager the situation in Greece is dramatically worse.

I remember reading a NYT article from the same year that provided further insight:

Various studies, including one by the Federation of Greek Industries last year, have estimated that the government may be losing as much as $30 billion a year to tax evasion — a figure that would have gone a long way to solving its debt problems.

The cheating is often quite bold. When tax authorities recently surveyed the returns of 150 doctors with offices in the trendy Athens neighborhood of Kolonaki, where Prada and Chanel stores can be found, more than half had claimed an income of less than $40,000. Thirty-four of them claimed less than $13,300, a figure that exempted them from paying any taxes at all. source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.htm...

I haven't seen more recent numbers, but it makes me wonder about citizens' culpability in the government's debt crisis.

Maybe I'm overestimating the role of taxation in this debt fiasco, but it does seem as if the attitude of a lot of Greek citizens needs to change, if it hasn't already.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#17
post #12
post #4

tldr; Instead of taking new loans and servicing our existing debt, we'd like new loans and NOT have to service our existing debt. EDIT: To those responding "he didn't ask for loans" in the last line he's asking for a "European New Deal"... what else could that be besides new loans or a straight-on gifting of more money?

I am having a hard time getting that from this message: >My party, and I personally, disagreed fiercely with the May 2010 loan agreement not because you, the citizens of Germany, did not give us enough money but because you gave us much, much more than you should have and our government accepted far, far more than it had a right to. >Our task is not to confront our partners. It is not to secure larger loans or, equiv…

Well, there's only two ways I know of that you can use to "inject" money into a person: You either give it to them as a loan or a gift.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#18
>So, let me be frank: Greece's debt is currently unsustainable and will never be serviced, especially while Greece is being subjected to continuous fiscal waterboarding.

Despite the rhetoric this is the problem of not just Greece but many other developed governments, notably Japan. Central banks have been goosing the time value of money in an effort to spur 'growth' because if an entity can become richer faster than their debt will grow then it's a win-win situation.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#19
post #3

What isn't addressed in this letter and most people don't realize is that the Greek debt as an absolute number isn't that big. The real problem is that Greece needs more money to continue operation than it produces, and this fact hasn't changed nor will in the near future. Effectively this makes Greece a black hole for incoming money where incoming money have no actual benefit for anyone other than just keep a near-c…

Actually greece has a primary budget surplus, so at this point they are paying back the "loans", the problem is that they are miserable while doing so.

If people are unemployed you are squandering resources.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#20
This one sentence sums up what I think is the fundamental problem: "An insolvency problem was thus dealt with as if it were a case of illiquidity." That is, the problem isn't some ephemeral panic where people are temporarily unwilling to lend. The problem is there are massive capital losses that have yet to be acknowledged. The problem is that Euro politicians believe that by continuing to bankroll Greece they will stem a wider panic. But as John Mills observed in a speech given to the Manchester Statistical Society in 1867, “panics do not destroy capital; they merely reveal the extent to which it has been previously destroyed by its betrayal into hopelessly unproductive works”

The losses must be acknowledged. The only question is by whom? By the people who made the loans? Or will the taxpayers of Europe be called upon, as the taxpayers of America were, to eat the losses?

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