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I don’t know what to do, you guys

fredrikdeboer.com

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Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#171

Post by Kalium »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #129
electronvolt wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question: if it came out that Eich had donated to, say, the KKK, would you feel the same way? I have mixed feelings over the way he was treated, but your argument actually seems the opposite of nuanced: the blanket claim that someone should never be fired for their political views (particularly, from a public position where their politics could have an effect on the company they represent both on internal culture and…

That's a hard question. Not so much because of anything related to politics, but because I get stuck thinking about actual murders committed by the KKK. If instead you asked about something like a US neo-nazi group I would be much more tolerant of people giving money to a terrible group like that in a way completely unrelated to their job. The reason the situation is tricky, I think, is because jobs with a spokespers…

> I can't think of any major downsides from letting people have work and personal life be separate.

It removes the ability to enforce arbitrary social conformity.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#172

Post by davesque »

I think this kind of hysteria is pretty common in politics (actually, my incidental use of the word "hysteria" is fitting if anyone remembers that whole controversy). I guess the author's argument is that this phenomenon is more pronounced on the left. Perhaps.

It reminds me of a time when a friend of mine got fired from his job at a private school in the eastern US for simply patting a female student on the back during class. You might wonder what the nature of this "patting" was, but I don't. He's just not the kind of person who would have done that in a creepy way. He was devastated, of course, having just been labeled in a somewhat official capacity as a sexual predator. It's too bad that this kind of thing happens.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#173

Post by graeme »

tomlock wrote: post #45

I don't think queer-exclusive spaces should exist, and I'm queer, and extremely left wing. That opinion is unpopular in queer circles. The flak I cop for that is nothing compared to the very real, quantified consequences for women trying to enter tech, or who are already in it. I think we should upvote more articles about that and less articles about this.

Your point is good, but I think you've missed the argument.

The author wasn't saying that intersectionalism produces worse injustices than other parts of society.

The author was saying that intersectionalism marginalises itself and drives away allies by focussing on orthodoxy and using shame as a tool to change habits of speech.

This ties into the larger issues of gender reform in tech. A left wing that didn't actively repel those who speak slightly differently would be in a stronger position to change society.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#174

Post by Kalium »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #158
GauntletWizard wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry; was the connection not clear enough for you? Politics of the left wing are increasingly about keeping up appearances and out-dogmaing one another, scaring off potential allies and self-praise on spurious grounds. I can't make saidsame rant on facebook, because the people who salivated over the story would tear me to shreds, and I really don't want to deal with that today, or ever.

That's what the original post was about. Your post was about you being such a grinch that you feel the need to register your outrage at what was--at worst--a perfectly harmless, feel-good fluff piece.

Also, failing to understand the piece. The piece was about knowing yourself.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#175

Post by angersock »

deciplex wrote: post #119
angersock wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the most annoying places to be right now is to have sympathies with both sides of these issues and to try to discuss things rationally and evenly. Simple example: I've got two good friends, one of them on one side of the GamerGate nonsense, and one on the other. I have to be very careful chatting with them, because while they each separately are very articulate and reasoned in their arguments, I cannot even pr…

My reaction to Gamergate was to continue playing video games and to continue not reading 'Games Journalism' because I already knew it was payola garbage. As for your friends my suggestion would be to discuss other shared interests. It's possible - even common - for both 'sides' of an issue to be way off the mark.

So, first off, there are some very interesting bits of "Games Journalism" or even just mild-mannered industry publications (Gamasutra et al) who are still quite worth reading even despite the GamerGate nonsense.

Second and more importantly, it's now in some third or later phase where frankly things have extended quite beyond just games. Both friends spend a lot of time online reading blogs, reading essays, and basically being literate on digital culture. That being the case, avoiding the ripples and crazy of that whole fiasco is hard.

There's a fascinating de facto trial of the limits of free speech in the age of mass point-to-point communication, and if you just stick your head in the sand because of GG you're going to be missing a lot.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#176

Post by angersock »

xtrumanx wrote: post #156
smt88 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shame can be (and has been) a tool for positive change. I grew up in the South. Many of my peers never heard racist comments until they were adults, even though many adults in our community were deeply racist. That made my generation far less racist than older ones. So why were the racists so quiet? Because it stopped being socially acceptable to be racist. Those people were ashamed of publicly stating their views. R…

One reason I don't like that idea is that it creates hypocrites. I'd rather get thing like that out in the open since it may even be possible to convince some of those people that their beliefs are wrong but if you shame them into silence, you may not even have the chance to identify them.

"you may not even have the chance to identify them."

And if so, why is that a problem?

If you never knew, why would it bother you?

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#177

Post by jgeorge »

Kalium wrote: post #28
indlebe wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are you sharing your views with that you are experiencing so much judgement, etc? Are these comments on your blog, or real life friends, or both? >politics are still left of centre The whole left-right thing is really a false dichotomy. It sounds to me like you associated/associate with extremists of political correctness. I hold some very progressive ideologies, but I have never faced ridicule if I don't "tow th…

> Who are you sharing your views with that you are experiencing so much judgement, etc? You'd be surprised. I left the Bay for a handful of years, and when I came back half of my friends had become political radicals. There is no lack of people who will react badly if you don't share their views in detail.

I go out of my way to NOT discuss politics amongst colleagues and co-workers, as my political beliefs are not anyone's business but my own and the ballot box's. While in private I actually agree with a fair amount of the ideals espoused by my far-more-progressive colleagues, I'm regularly called out in some circles for NOT sharing my views in detail and participating in the collective political superiority circle.... well, you know what I mean.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#178

Post by blfr »

Frondo wrote: post #160
yummyfajitas wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Witness how difficult and ineffective policies to ensure accountability for teachers and eliminate the bad ones are. Consider the difficulty in reducing dependency programs (e.g., SS, Medicare) - these are political non-starters due to old people voting. On the cultural front, note how difficult it is even to criticize teachers or government dependents. Consider the media reaction when Romney correctly pointed out th…

Very nearly 100% of the people living within U.S. borders are dependent on the government, whether in the form of tax subsidies or use of government-built services. I'm sure many people of a certain ideological stripe feel as though they're somehow self-reliant and do not rely on anything any level of government provides, but that does not mesh with reality. As for shaming people on welfare, I'm again unsure which co…

Very nearly 100% of the people living within U.S. borders are dependent on the government, whether in the form of tax subsidies or use of government-built services.

He means net payments to/from the government, not using the roads.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#179

Post by baisong »

This article perfectly demonstrates how talking about "PC" prevents good discussion about inclusion.

As it turns out, "PC" is a term developed to dismiss appeals to sensitivity and inclusion. And it's quite good at doing so!

So, if you care about sensitivity and inclusion, but focus on "PC", you're forced, like this author, to throw your hands up in defeat.

It's actually quite simple: if you realize that policing other's language is more often itself a form of exclusion/aggression, then you can clearly describe the scenarios the author relates as part of the problem, not as some failure of the only proposed solution to an unfathomable problem.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#180

Post by baisong »

baisong wrote: post #179

This article perfectly demonstrates how talking about "PC" prevents good discussion about inclusion. As it turns out, "PC" is a term developed to dismiss appeals to sensitivity and inclusion. And it's quite good at doing so! So, if you care about sensitivity and inclusion, but focus on "PC", you're forced, like this author, to throw your hands up in defeat. It's actually quite simple: if you realize that policing oth…

Here's the solution for these kinds of situations:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4ZKIeNnTBe2Q2ExQkJRcVNNYkl...

Search for "Responding to Micro-Aggression" for a step by step guide.

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