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I don’t know what to do, you guys

fredrikdeboer.com

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Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#41

Post by reitzensteinm »

dethstar wrote: post #14
derefr wrote: post #4

To leftist politics, and the "social justice" movement in particular: separate the bullies from the revolutionaries. Shun the bullies; don't let them use your name. Then we'll stop being afraid of the name, and of the revolutionaries.

Thing is, when you feel bullied, why is that? Is it because people are trying to tackle issues that benefit you? Trying to get you to not be certain way simply for the sake/respect of others that are not like you? Is it because theyre being unnecesarily rude? I can comprehend how someone being rude leaves a bad taste, but it seems to me like most of the time bully is anyone who doesnt agree with you.

For what its worth, I know many people in our (broad) community with views similar to my own that I consider asshole bullies. People seem to turn a blind eye to - or even encourage - all sorts of nastiness from those they like or agree with.

It's uncharitable to assume that the parent's experience stems from his or her own shortcomings.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#42

Post by [deleted] »

stolio wrote: post #12

I spent about ten years being an "ally" to feminism, to the LGBT community, to minorities, etc. And then my views drifted ever so slightly from the tried and true party lines. One day I said I thought it was wrong that Brandon Eich was forced out of Mozilla, I said I thought it was wrong the way he was treated. Immediately the decade spent arguing for gay rights and marriage equality disappeared and I became a bigot,…

[deleted]

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#43

Post by Kalium »

dethstar wrote: post #34
Kalium wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often, the bully is someone who gets off on the feeling of power. That's what defines a bully, not that they disagree with you.

I upvoted you. I'm not disagreeing with the OP in regards to the bullies. But you find them everywhere, saying they're the turn off for certain ideas while being on the opposite spectrum of the discussion, which also has bullies, doesnt make much sense. Basically, if what you agree with is decided by who expresses their ideas in a quieter way, you'd probably agree with nothing.

One of the more important parts of Chait's article is that when bullies dominate discourse, you no longer have discourse at all. You get enforced conformity and running games of one-upsmanship.

I'm not suggesting that bullies make ideas poisonous. I'm saying that bullies poison discourse and shut off conversations. They don't so much drive people to other ideas as they do drive people away from engaging entirely.

Especially when they do things like staking out the position that there is no reasonable room for disagreeing with them.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#44

Post by nether »

omegaham wrote: post #36

I think one of the biggest problems with these types is that they associate opinions with morality. As in, if you hold uninformed / ignorant / bigoted opinions, you are automatically an evil person and should be treated accordingly. Are some bigoted people evil? Sure. But I think that a lot of people hold various opinions because they just haven't thought about it too hard. They've just gone along with whatever they'…

> The guiding principle should be stop being an asshole. Instead, the SJW crowd resorts to yelling about "tone policing" and drives away people who would normally be allies.

> Here's some food for thought. The black civil rights movement in the 60s and the gay rights movement today have enjoyed a lot of success because they emphasized their status as normal people. As soon as you get the kooks who excoriate people for any slight deviation from the One True Faith, you end up failing miserably.

I've started to sympathize with Dr. Kaczynski's view of leftism being some ego-driven movement meant to satisfy one group's desire for power. He puts it bluntly:

> Helping black people is not their real goal. Instead, race problems serve as an excuse for them to express their own hostility and frustrated need for power. In doing so they actually harm black people, because the activists hostile attitude toward the white majority tends to intensify race hatred.

As it is with SJW's trying to "help" groups they believe to be marginalized.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#45

Post by tomlock »

I don't think queer-exclusive spaces should exist, and I'm queer, and extremely left wing. That opinion is unpopular in queer circles.

The flak I cop for that is nothing compared to the very real, quantified consequences for women trying to enter tech, or who are already in it. I think we should upvote more articles about that and less articles about this.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#46

Post by vellum »

vacri wrote: post #24
stolio wrote: post #12

I spent about ten years being an "ally" to feminism, to the LGBT community, to minorities, etc. And then my views drifted ever so slightly from the tried and true party lines. One day I said I thought it was wrong that Brandon Eich was forced out of Mozilla, I said I thought it was wrong the way he was treated. Immediately the decade spent arguing for gay rights and marriage equality disappeared and I became a bigot,…

It's worth remembering that one advantage right-side politics have is that they are passionate for the status quo. Left-side politics are passionate for change. And it's when people are passionate that they get into disagreement; it's much easier for lefties to disagree about what kind of change they want, than for righties to disagree about how they want things to stay the same...

Each side has their own circular firing squad. Examples: Republicans sniping at each other and calling each other a RINO (Republican In Name Only), the Tea Party primarying mainstream politicians for not being conservative enough, etc.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#47

Post by Dylan16807 »

im3w1l wrote: post #30
geofft wrote: post #17

Like it does for a lot of things, I think feminism has its own lingo for this very problem, and it's called the lack of "101 spaces" -- as in spaces where you're learning "Feminism 101", or "Anti-racism 101", or whatever, spaces where the sort of basic questions that would be inappropriate in a graduate-level class are welcome and expected. A lot of activists are trying to effect some actual social change. That requi…

There is one point at which your analogy to pointers breaks down. After having studied pointers, you will never be in a position to disagree. But you could come away from a class on feminism 101 disagreeing with many things.

I've seen plenty of people disagree on whether pointers are a good idea.

Even better, should pointers be nullable?

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#48

Post by javajosh »

stolio wrote: post #12

I spent about ten years being an "ally" to feminism, to the LGBT community, to minorities, etc. And then my views drifted ever so slightly from the tried and true party lines. One day I said I thought it was wrong that Brandon Eich was forced out of Mozilla, I said I thought it was wrong the way he was treated. Immediately the decade spent arguing for gay rights and marriage equality disappeared and I became a bigot,…

I feel ya. I'm a staunch gay rights advocate, even fought prop 8, but I still thought Eich was treated unfairly. A man shouldn't lose his job because of his political views, just like he shouldn't lose it for being, say, transgendered. Needless to say, this is a nuanced position, and some people simply don't have the capacity for nuance, sadly.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#49

Post by vacri »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #37
vacri wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth remembering that one advantage right-side politics have is that they are passionate for the status quo. Left-side politics are passionate for change. And it's when people are passionate that they get into disagreement; it's much easier for lefties to disagree about what kind of change they want, than for righties to disagree about how they want things to stay the same...

This is an odd view. Right wing politics in the US claims to lean toward reducing/dismantling SS and the welfare state, radically changing immigration and education policy. (In reality they are prevented from doing this, of course.) In contrast, left wing politicians just want to throw more money at the same things.

"radically changing immigration and education policy." => "making it so that the current demographic makeup doesn't change that much". Right-wing reforms of this kind aren't about the legislative change, but about keeping society itself relatively unchanged. Rate of reform isn't calculated in number of laws passed, but in the societal effects of those laws.
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