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I don’t know what to do, you guys

fredrikdeboer.com

11–20 of 216 posts

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#12
I spent about ten years being an "ally" to feminism, to the LGBT community, to minorities, etc.

And then my views drifted ever so slightly from the tried and true party lines. One day I said I thought it was wrong that Brandon Eich was forced out of Mozilla, I said I thought it was wrong the way he was treated. Immediately the decade spent arguing for gay rights and marriage equality disappeared and I became a bigot, the enemy.

One day I said it seemed clear that there is in fact a biological aspect to gender. The decade spent arguing for feminist politics disappeared, and I became a sexist. Just like that.

I've lost friends, old friends over these things. My politics are still left of center but I've learned not to open my mouth around the social justice set because to them I'm a sexist/bigot/racist/etc. It's amazing just how small a step out of line you have to take before the group tries to collectively shame you into seeing the light. It's amazing that shame has become a central tool for trying to create positive social change.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#13
post #4

To leftist politics, and the "social justice" movement in particular: separate the bullies from the revolutionaries. Shun the bullies; don't let them use your name. Then we'll stop being afraid of the name, and of the revolutionaries.

Funny, that's the exact advice I would give to #GamerGate.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#14
post #4

To leftist politics, and the "social justice" movement in particular: separate the bullies from the revolutionaries. Shun the bullies; don't let them use your name. Then we'll stop being afraid of the name, and of the revolutionaries.

Thing is, when you feel bullied, why is that? Is it because people are trying to tackle issues that benefit you? Trying to get you to not be certain way simply for the sake/respect of others that are not like you? Is it because theyre being unnecesarily rude?

I can comprehend how someone being rude leaves a bad taste, but it seems to me like most of the time bully is anyone who doesnt agree with you.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#15

The author spends a lot of time decrying Chait, his article, and his views, but seems to end up in a pretty similar place. Other than the fact that deBoer has scrupulously chosen to only call out white authors, this article seems to "scold" its subjects for their tactics just the same as Chait's did. What's the basis for the great distinction between the two that's the basis for the first and last paragraphs? That Ch…

The author needs to be seen to hate Chait in order to be taken seriously by the intended audience.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#16
I don't think it's an accident that all three of his examples involve college students. I saw plenty of examples of this type of aggressive ideological policing in various political groups I was involved in when I was college. I have seen exactly zero in nearly twenty years of being involved with and working in left-wing politics after graduation.

(Which isn't to say it never happens, I'm sure it does, just that it's not the epidemic it would appear to be if you look solely at politics as she is practiced on campus.)

There's an old saying to the effect that campus politics are so vicious because the stakes are so low. When you get out in the real world and realize politics requires more than making statements -- that it requires building movements, and you need lots of people in order to build movements that make a difference -- you learn fast to either live with people who are mostly on your side, even if they disagree with you here and there, or you content yourself with writing blog manifestos.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#17
Like it does for a lot of things, I think feminism has its own lingo for this very problem, and it's called the lack of "101 spaces" -- as in spaces where you're learning "Feminism 101", or "Anti-racism 101", or whatever, spaces where the sort of basic questions that would be inappropriate in a graduate-level class are welcome and expected.

A lot of activists are trying to effect some actual social change. That requires not staying on the basics forever, just as if you're writing papers on operating system design, you won't be spending much time explaining what pointers are. Even in a classroom, a graduate-level class on operating systems isn't a place where you'll be taken seriously if you complain that pointers are needlessly confusing. But it would be a mistake to conclude that coherently explaining pointers isn't important, just because nobody working on OS design seems to do it, or that the student wasn't earnest in finding pointers needlessly confusing. In fact it is absolutely fundamental that pointers are taught well and students be taken seriously when they express confusion -- but it is precisely because it is fundamental that it needs to be in a separate place.

I have seen two good forms of "101 spaces", though. One is quietly listening in upperclassman spaces, the Internet's venerable rule to "lurk moar". You won't understand everything at once; you certainly won't pick up the lingo, and you probably won't understand several of the conclusions. But in an era with internet search, you can slowly work on figuring out what people have found out, just as it's possible to catch up to the state of research by just reading papers and trying to figure out what they mean.

The other is friends, people who have been through the 101 class but also personally know you're acting in good faith. If you say something that's innocently wrong to them, they'll know it's innocently wrong, and not malicious, badgering a tired point, concern trolling, etc. In turn, of course, listen to what they have to say.

But besides those, there's certainly a lack, and for various reasons, a lot of people may not find internet-lurking their style of learning, or may not have sufficiently knowledgeable friends to go bother. It would be a good thing for the world to see more. But unfortunately, the responsibility to create them cannot be on the shoulders of the activists. If you think teaching at a research university is ever half-hearted, imagine what it would be like if the researchers weren't paid to teach, weren't expected to teach at all, and were, often, trying to fit in research in their spare time after another full-time job.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#18

The author spends a lot of time decrying Chait, his article, and his views, but seems to end up in a pretty similar place. Other than the fact that deBoer has scrupulously chosen to only call out white authors, this article seems to "scold" its subjects for their tactics just the same as Chait's did. What's the basis for the great distinction between the two that's the basis for the first and last paragraphs? That Ch…

I think the short of it is that deBoer believes he has a valid point, but believes that there's is a likelihood that his intended audience will just ignore him. He's trying to insulate himself from that outcome by several tactics: The elaborate denunciation of Chait, the careful choosing of targets, the stressing of his credentials and history.

If deBoer could be honest, he'd probably say "WTF is wrong with you? Chait was correct, and excommunicating him for saying correct-but-uncomfortable things is fundamentally unhelpful and illiberal". But he can't say that, because the same process will excommunicate him too, so we get this instead. Not that it'll help; for some of the more extreme types, it's probably enough that Chait quoted deBoer approvingly in his article.

(You'll notice that while he mouths the pro forma denunciations of Chait, he never really specifies where he thinks Chait got it wrong.)

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#19
post #7
post #4

To leftist politics, and the "social justice" movement in particular: separate the bullies from the revolutionaries. Shun the bullies; don't let them use your name. Then we'll stop being afraid of the name, and of the revolutionaries.

This is easy to beat: just go to the source. If there's a howling white man going on about injustice and how he's going to tell you about the struggles of women of color, First Nations and Imperialism.. ignore that person. Go talk to a (well.. several, actually) woman of color, member of a First Nation or a nation ravaged by European and/or American imperialism. "But what can I do as a white man/white women/generally…

It’s absurd to claim that white men can’t ever under any circumstances have anything to say about the struggles of other people, but there are certainly people who make such a claim.

As one example, my father, an anthropologist/historian in his 60s who spent his whole career and life befriending, interviewing, translating, and writing about indigenous rural peasants in southern Mexico, and probably knows as much or more about their history and circumstances as anyone alive (in an intellectual sense, if not precisely as lived personal experience, since he was never himself a destitute peasant) was told by a 30-year-old recent Ph.D from a well-off family (who had literally never worked a job outside academia, and spent her entire life living in rich US suburbs) that he had no right to comment on the circumstances of indigenous rural peasants, “the subaltern” to use her term, because he he was a privileged member of the hegemonic class, whereas she could, as a Latina.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#20
This post, which definitely resonates with me and my experience in Silicon Valley and in Seattle, surrounded by very leftist politics, reminds me a lot of Mencius Moldbug's brilliant piece "Technology, communism and the Brown Scare":

http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2013/09/technol...

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