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How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

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Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#51

Post by danielweber »

robert_tweed wrote: post #27
mrfusion wrote: post #22

I think a lot of anti-vax stuff might be fixed with a compelling documentary. Vaccines need their own "Blackfish" documentary. Simply producing that one vivid, compelling movie is now completely changing how whales and dolphins are kept at aquariums. The power of a well produced documentary is really unbelievable. It makes sense. People are visual creatures, and natural story tellers (and listeners) so sometimes show…

Absolutely. And it should explain herd immunity very clearly, a bit like this demo: http://op12no2.me/toys/herd/ People need to stop believing that it's a personal choice for them alone. That is no more true than if they were to go around blowing cigarette smoke into the faces of other people. It's anti-social behaviour and even worse, the consequences are potentially deadly.

Reading the article, the community backed off from vaccination following two kids having a bad reaction to an MMR vaccine.

It wasn't "personal choice" or "religious exception." They had a bad experience and were scared away.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#52

Post by agentsmith »

Marazan wrote: post #45
agentsmith wrote: post #37

The media is filtering out the logic from this debate. I would have hoped HN would be more informed. Its well established that no vaccine has an effect that lasts longer than seven years. This is the reason for booster shots. Every vaccine researcher and pharma company will tell you this. The reason we immunize children is because their hygiene practices are poorer than most adults and they are a marginalized class.…

Where on earth do you get the notion that no vaccine lasts longer than 7 years? Also, how does one get the power to down vote.

Second paragraph, booster shots. Also, that CDC link is not based on science. More a combination of marketing and the effects of hygiene and nutrition. Same for the immune.org link.

just vote everyone else up. same effect.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#53

Post by danielweber »

moogleii wrote: post #30
larsiusprime wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not understand the Amish. They do not have some simplistic "all modern technology is bad" ban. They selectively use some modern technologies, and eschew others.

Hence, why I asked, smarty.

You also could have read the article:

In the Ohio case, "patient zero" had traveled to the Philippines on a missionary trip. (In case you were wondering, he took a plane. Miller explained, "Some Amish fly. Some don't.")

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#54

Post by mikeash »

agentsmith wrote: post #37

The media is filtering out the logic from this debate. I would have hoped HN would be more informed. Its well established that no vaccine has an effect that lasts longer than seven years. This is the reason for booster shots. Every vaccine researcher and pharma company will tell you this. The reason we immunize children is because their hygiene practices are poorer than most adults and they are a marginalized class.…

Got a cite for that "seven years" figure?

According to this web page, lots of vaccines last more than 7 years, with some lasting for life:

http://www.traveldoctor.co.nz/vaccinations.aspx

Of those that don't last for life, adults do get booster shots. I don't know why you think they don't. I get a flu shot every year and I get boosters for other diseases every so often when I have a physical.

I don't immunize my child because she's marginalized and powerless to resist. I do it because it's a cheap, easy, and safe way to reduce her chances of discomfort, disability, and death. Her mother and I often try to get our vaccinations at the same time she does so we can show her that she's not alone.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#55

Post by mikeash »

danielweber wrote: post #51
robert_tweed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. And it should explain herd immunity very clearly, a bit like this demo: http://op12no2.me/toys/herd/ People need to stop believing that it's a personal choice for them alone. That is no more true than if they were to go around blowing cigarette smoke into the faces of other people. It's anti-social behaviour and even worse, the consequences are potentially deadly.

Reading the article, the community backed off from vaccination following two kids having a bad reaction to an MMR vaccine. It wasn't "personal choice" or "religious exception." They had a bad experience and were scared away.

Two kids allegedly getting sick after receiving an MMR vaccine.

I don't know if those terms are justified, but if they are then that's rather different from "two kids having a bad reaction to an MMR vaccine."

One thing we need to educate people about is that just because you get sick after getting a shot doesn't mean the shot caused you to get sick, and that even if it is, an occasional bad reaction is worth it if the rate is sufficiently low and the consequences sufficiently mild.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#56

Post by edent »

agentsmith wrote: post #37

The media is filtering out the logic from this debate. I would have hoped HN would be more informed. Its well established that no vaccine has an effect that lasts longer than seven years. This is the reason for booster shots. Every vaccine researcher and pharma company will tell you this. The reason we immunize children is because their hygiene practices are poorer than most adults and they are a marginalized class.…

Demonstrably false - http://www.immune.org.nz/duration-protection-efficacy-and-ef... - there are several vaccines with effectiveness longer than 7 years.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#57

Post by mikeash »

stelonix wrote: post #17
skynetv2 wrote: post #3

it breaks my heart to see so many "adults" making "informed decisions" about NOT vaccinating their children. They should really go live in undeveloped countries where vaccines are scarce and unavailable to experience first hand what lack of vaccinations actually means, what the implications are for the general population. I grew up, fortunately with out any problems, seeing so many kids suffering from polio, handicap…

While I agree I'd do anything to help my child, I also realize it's not up to me or most importantly, the government to dictate how other parents should raise their children. The right to raise your child the way you see fit, obviously without any major abuse is an universal right any parent has and it's above any social construct. Abuse, in this context, should be real abuse, which means physical or psychological vi…

Would you allow parents to hand their children a loaded pistol and let them play with it outside, endangering themselves and others?

Remaining unvaccinated is the medical equivalent. Maybe we should let parents medically endanger their own children (although I really don't think we should) but we definitely should not let parents endanger my child, or me.

There is no simple answer here. It's not just a matter of declaring that free people should be left alone. Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose, and your right to remain unvaccinated ends when you make me sick.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#58

Post by click170 »

robert_tweed wrote: post #27
mrfusion wrote: post #22

I think a lot of anti-vax stuff might be fixed with a compelling documentary. Vaccines need their own "Blackfish" documentary. Simply producing that one vivid, compelling movie is now completely changing how whales and dolphins are kept at aquariums. The power of a well produced documentary is really unbelievable. It makes sense. People are visual creatures, and natural story tellers (and listeners) so sometimes show…

Absolutely. And it should explain herd immunity very clearly, a bit like this demo: http://op12no2.me/toys/herd/ People need to stop believing that it's a personal choice for them alone. That is no more true than if they were to go around blowing cigarette smoke into the faces of other people. It's anti-social behaviour and even worse, the consequences are potentially deadly.

People must always have a choice to vaccinate or not, forcing it upon them will do nobody any good because it will only increase the distrust of government.

That said, if you don't vaccinate, you are a threat to the public and I do think you should be banned from public schools, public transportation, public gatherings and should have to explain to anyone you physically interact with that you are a risk to them and their family.

We should be showing anti-vaxers the error of their ways using facts, debate, and the truth. Forcing it on them only increases their distrust and helps sway others to their side.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#59

Post by nsgi »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #39
skynetv2 wrote: post #3

it breaks my heart to see so many "adults" making "informed decisions" about NOT vaccinating their children. They should really go live in undeveloped countries where vaccines are scarce and unavailable to experience first hand what lack of vaccinations actually means, what the implications are for the general population. I grew up, fortunately with out any problems, seeing so many kids suffering from polio, handicap…

Polio is about literal shit in the water in places like India, not so much the vaccines. Polio was eliminated in the developed world mostly by way of water chlorination. I'm not an "anti-vaxer" and am not well read on the subject of vaccination, but online discussions of this topic seem essentially religious. People who clearly have no particular expertise go on about how we will be damned if all are not vaccinated.…

Sanitation can make polio a more serious problem, since it increases the average age of infection, and the risk of paralysis increases with age.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#60

Post by mikeyouse »

Swizec wrote: post #35
digi_owl wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is why i find the whole economics idea, that multiple entities doing their thing for individual profit will produce general social improvements, questionable at best.

I thought the current economic theory was that everyone should do what's best for them AND the group? Case in point, tobacco companies sponsoring anti-smoking ads because talk of smoking increases revenues for the smoking industry as a whole. Instead of trying to advertise themselves individually.

The anti-smoking advertisements aren't out there out of the goodness of Altria's cold, dead heart - even if they do result in more smoking. As part of the tobacco settlement in the 1990s, the tobacco companies had to give billions of dollars to anti-smoking groups. The largest of which, the American Legacy Foundation (behind the 'Truth' ad campaign) has over a billion dollars in an endowment to run anti-smoking ads. Due in part to these ads, the teenage smoking rate is literally half of where it was before the settlement;

http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2014/p0612-YRBS.html

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