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To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

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Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#41
post #24
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me like New York's current law is the same as California. From the article you linked: The state law provides two exemptions from the mandate, ... the second for "children whose parent, parents, or guardian hold genuine and sincere religious beliefs which are contrary to the practices herein required. The NPR article seems to discuss a father specifically attacking the personal belief exemption in Califor…

I highly doubt people in Marin are doing it on religious grounds.

Can confirm, I grew up near the area described in the article. USC has some 2010 data [1] on religious beliefs in Marin. None of the popular belief systems are known for discouraging immunization. Anecdotally, Marin has quite a large alternative medicine following which may explain the high opt-out rate.

[1] http://crcc.usc.edu/resources/demographics/marin.html

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#42
One thing confuses me.

Why are parents of vaccinated kids so terrified of unvaccinated kids??

Does vaccination work or not?

If my kids are vaccinated, doesn't that mean they won't catch the disease if they encounter it? Or, at the worst, get a mild dose.

If vaccination works, why do we care that a small minority aren't vaccinated?

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#43
One thing confuses me.

Why are parents of vaccinated kids so terrified of unvaccinated kids??

Does vaccination work or not?

If my kids are vaccinated, doesn't that mean they won't catch the disease if they encounter it? Or, at the worst, get a mild dose.

If vaccination works, why do we care that a small minority aren't vaccinated?

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#44
This isn't a new concept, but it's definitely a good idea. I started public school in Texas around 1992, and they required me to have all the standard vaccinations as a condition of enrollment. Looks like they're still doing this: http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/immunize/school/

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#45
post #9

New York has set such a policy in place and it's been upheld through multiple trials and appeals. Perhaps once it's settled in the higher courts it will become standard policy in a lot of other places. Once can hope. http://jurist.org/paperchase/2015/01/federal-appeals-court-u...

It seems to me like New York's current law is the same as California. From the article you linked: The state law provides two exemptions from the mandate, ... the second for "children whose parent, parents, or guardian hold genuine and sincere religious beliefs which are contrary to the practices herein required. The NPR article seems to discuss a father specifically attacking the personal belief exemption in Califor…

Actually I think I linked to the wrong thing. The same judge also ruled in favor of barring unvaccinated children from school when an outbreak of a preventable illness hits, which seems like a pretty effective way of protecting children while simultaneously respecting the religious choice of the parents.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/23/nyregion/judge-upholds-pol...

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#46
post #11

Some people view their right to not vaccinate, not circumcise, have a home birth of their son and then home-school him, to be an essential religious freedom protected by the first amendment, no different than their right to be a conscientious objector of military conscription. This is a far more complex issue than it appears. Don't dismiss it derisively, as if only an idiot could disagree with you. (Not speaking to a…

I think you're being downvoted for two things:

1. Conflating things like circumcision and home schooling with vaccination. While there may be an argument for circumcision and against home schooling, it is a far cry from the arguments that support vaccination and the direct effect that vaccination has on the global - not just local - community.

2. The suggestion that religious freedoms extend beyond a single person. It's really not that complex of an issue: do what you want as long as it doesn't have a direct negative impact on those around you. If that involves cheering for Jesus, praying five times a day, not eating meat on Friday or not working on the Sabbath, go for it. But the moment religious elements start to negatively impact others, including elements like restrictions of free speech, slavery and FGM, we see it as immoral and extending beyond religious freedom. In this case, by not vaccinating your child, you are potentially (and very likely to be) putting your child and others through harm, making it less of a religious issue and much more of an issue of blatant negligence.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#47
If schools, as the primary concern, were to be lofted into a position of being "disease free" we should see an interesting dynamic in the tragedy of severe infections, but maybe also in what most people consider milder infections, like cold and flu. When your coworkers are sick, they are often are far more considerate than children can be.

Full vaccination, with only exceptions for medical needs like in the article, would be a forgone conclusion if schools also required any child showing signs of mild illness to be kept out of the general population, likely at home.

People can't deny their children the care and proximity necessary to comfort when the child is ill. This means that children, who are disinclined or too naive to understand how to minimize illness are sent to mix with many other children every day. Every night, they come home and can carry an infection into an entire house.

If society were to shift its thinking on rhinovirus, flu, and other "common" illnesses you could likely see a large decline in those. With stronger herd illness-prevention standards of thought and behavior, you could, over time, increase the well-being and productivity of society.

We could learn something from the manners of Japanese and other Asian societies that consider it selfish and inconsiderate to not wear masks and take inordinate precaution in helping not get the people around them sick when they are functional, but not well.

If that were the standard for common illness, then more severe illnesses with moderate to strong vaccines would be more effective (better compliance) and this situation would be less contentious.

Asking the school to be the legal wedge is, sadly, a last ditch effort to do something in an extreme case that should be something that individuals take responsibility for. It shouldn't come to this. Vaccinate responsibly and level-up your herd protection game.

shrug "Kids just get sick all the time. Can't do anything about it." is a horrible cop-out, selfish, lazy, and potentially dangerous to tragic in scale.

I've offered to pay hourly coworkers to go home and NOT stay at work. If I miss a day or few of work being miserable, it's more valuable to my company/employers than the money "handed out." Pay for performance and let sick people rest... or force them to. Sick kids and adults perform poorly and can take down others with them.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#48
post #27

If it was my son and he couldn't be vaccinated for a few months I'd simply hold him out of school until the vaccinations could be administered. I feel for the child and his family, it's a horrible thing that happened to them, but talk about solving a simple problem with an activist response. This is how we end up with a ridiculous number of laws and regulations. If we should legislate that every kid in a public schoo…

I believe nearly every university requires proof of vaccination/immunity for a variety of standard immunizations for attendance. It's pretty standard. I don't know if it's some federal law, or just good public health practice.

Are you upset about this? I'm not sure why the anti-vaccination crowd isn't more upset about this -- but bite my tongue, I'm sure it'll be coming next.

You can always make a slippery slope argument, but public educational institutions seem like a pretty appropriate place to require vaccinations.

Then again, why not legislate that every kid period is vaccinated (unless health conditions prevent it), really, why not?

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#49
post #36
post #27

If it was my son and he couldn't be vaccinated for a few months I'd simply hold him out of school until the vaccinations could be administered. I feel for the child and his family, it's a horrible thing that happened to them, but talk about solving a simple problem with an activist response. This is how we end up with a ridiculous number of laws and regulations. If we should legislate that every kid in a public schoo…

And furthermore, if the concern is that unvaccinated children are putting others at risk and should be excluded from school, then wouldn't it stand to reason that this child (who is also unvaccinated) is also putting others at risk (albeit the motivation for not vaccinating is different)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

Public health is inherently a community thing, cause contagious diseases are transmitted socially, that's just how it works. If everyone who can be vaccinated is, then those who can't are much safer.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#50
post #27

If it was my son and he couldn't be vaccinated for a few months I'd simply hold him out of school until the vaccinations could be administered. I feel for the child and his family, it's a horrible thing that happened to them, but talk about solving a simple problem with an activist response. This is how we end up with a ridiculous number of laws and regulations. If we should legislate that every kid in a public schoo…

That actually doesn't sound that bad. It's interesting invoking the phrase "laws and regulations" is meant to indicate on its face something terrible. :) Maybe it is just simply irresponsible and negligent not to vaccinate your child. Makes a lot of sense to me. But then I like polio's status today, perhaps some would like to see it make a comeback.
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