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“Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

theguardian.com

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Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#81

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

known wrote: post #5

Scientists have discovered that being poor actually impairs our cognitive abilities. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/28/the-lasting-impacts...

Link to the source: http://www.pnas.org/content/110/46/18442.abstract

Relevant quotes from the abstract:

Adults with lower family income at age 9 exhibited reduced ventrolateral and dorsolateral prefrontal cortex activity and failure to suppress amygdala activation during effortful regulation of negative emotion at age 24. ... The findings demonstrate the significance of childhood chronic stress exposures in predicting neural outcomes during emotion regulation in adults who grew up in poverty.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#82

Post by falcolas »

twisties wrote: post #63
twisties wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the need to remedy this injustice, when, as you claim, the difference between you and a poor person is luck?

Not sure how to interpret the pounding of downvotes. Do others feel that no injustice exists in a situation where comfortable living and hopeless suffering are deemed products by luck? Is it a disagreement that the GP's situation is based on luck (I never made that claim, GP did)? Is it disagreement that people living comfortably based on self-admitted luck should concern themselves with those who perpetually suffer…

The abruptness of your comment seemed to imply that it is less of a genuine question, and more of a passive-aggressive lashing out against the luck I had (or the emphasis I place on luck in getting where I am today).

But then again, I'm terrible at sensing the subtext of other people's written words, so I ended up simply taking the question at its face value.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#83

Post by zo1 »

jessaustin wrote: post #8
chaostheory wrote: post #2

> The closest Planned Parenthood [family planning clinic] to me is three hours. > Nobody likes poor people procreating, but they judge abortion even harder.

Nobody likes poor people procreating, but... Don't go by what they say or how they act: from the decisions they make, it's clear that TPTB derive a great deal of value from the existence of vast and increasing numbers of poor people. Sure, they'd probably prefer to just impoverish more of the middle class, but the procreation of the poor works as well.

To anyone that doesn't already know (I had to look it up). TPTB stands for "The Powers That Be".

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#84

Post by anon4 »

zo1 wrote: post #71
rayiner wrote: post #18

This bit is great: > We’re aware that we are not “having kids”, we’re “breeding”. We have kids for much the same reasons that I imagine rich people do. Urge to propagate and all. Nobody likes poor people procreating, but they judge abortion even harder.

I don't understand how individuals can bring new, innocent life into this world... With an uncertain economic outlook, or without at least a stable financial base to care for them. #Edit: I'd honestly like to hear some comments/feedback about the individuals that disagree with what I said above.

Individuals did it when there was nearly no food and you could get eaten by lions in your sleep. Humans are also one of the few species of mammals that can get pregnant year-round. Our breeding works in a shotgun approach - make as many as you can and hope that one makes it. Coupled with the fact that we have large heads that make birthing one of the most difficult among mammals, it's very unoptimised. But it works.

I'm not saying it's rational by any means, I'm just pointing out things.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#85

Post by rayiner »

zo1 wrote: post #71
rayiner wrote: post #18

This bit is great: > We’re aware that we are not “having kids”, we’re “breeding”. We have kids for much the same reasons that I imagine rich people do. Urge to propagate and all. Nobody likes poor people procreating, but they judge abortion even harder.

I don't understand how individuals can bring new, innocent life into this world... With an uncertain economic outlook, or without at least a stable financial base to care for them. #Edit: I'd honestly like to hear some comments/feedback about the individuals that disagree with what I said above.

My wife and I are ambitious people, "planners" from childhood who got the grades, got the degrees, and got the high-paying jobs. But our daughter, who was, um, "unplanned," brings us more joy than any of those accomplishments. And the wonderful things about human existence is that having kids and making families is accessible to almost everyone.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#86

Post by swatow »

shaftoe wrote: post #37
swatow wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What's the point of saving? One car crash and it's wiped out. You save and delay the gratification, but it never comes. You save and save and save, then some bad luck wipes it out. You lose a job. A vet bill. A friend needs a room and some food. That is ridiculous. If you hadn't saved and you had the car crash, then you would have been carless. Instead you were able to use to car >Poor people aren't stupid. You seem…

I'm amused that your comment is getting voted down, ostensibly by people who don't agree. I'll go much farther than you did and say defeatism is for losers. I don't mean that as a judgement, but as a statement of fact. You'll never get ahead when you don't see a point. Life is mostly a mental game. A serious problem for a lot of people (beyond the poor) is that they spend far more cognitive time thinking about how to…

I don't mind downvotes, but it seems that there are two groups, both arguing with me, both probably downvoting, who should really be arguing with each other. The views can be summarized as

A) The author is describing the psychology of poverty, how people develop a self-fulfilling belief that it is impossible to escape poverty. Poor people are making objectively bad decisions because they are unable to do otherwise due to the psychological impact of poverty. By failing to understand this, I show that I am callous and unsympathetic.

B) The author is describing the external difficulties of escaping poverty, in which various mechanisms make it extremely hard to escape poverty no matter what actions a person takes. By failing to acknowledge this reality, I am showing that I am callous and unsympathetic.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#87

Post by Bahamut »

falcolas wrote: post #17

I feel stupidly lucky that I got to where I am today. I was living in a friend's apartment with about $100 in "savings" and no job prospects in a town where I knew one person. Now, I own a house, work as a software developer and get paid nearly stupid amounts of money. Luck, a few good people (Brian, we still appreciate the $100!), and a natural affinity for computers are all that separate me from working those same…

I too have been similarly lucky - was not able to find a job for 2 1/2 years until I taught myself programming, and the money flows like water as a hard working & smart frontend engineer. In the interim I was living off of military reserve pay and friends' apartments. I focused on long term decision making, and it paid off handsomely, but it did put some strain on friendships - I have compensated them some in return, but I still feel indebted to them.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#88

Post by rayiner »

Rapzid wrote: post #75
rayiner wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I think poor people have a better grasp of statistics than the people who criticize them. If you're a poor kid in the inner city, it's totally rational not to study hard in school. Because even if you're one of the rare success stories that graduates and finishes college, odds are "college" means some third-tier school that's going to jump you into a job market where the majority of fresh graduates are unem…

Learning will help you in life. I'm not sure kids need a better reason to study and try to do well in school. Knowledge is power and all that. Not going to college doesn't negate that. Hell, I didn't and I'm sure tons of people on HN didn't even do college and I'm doing very well. I'm grateful for the public education system and the "free" education I recieved.

That's not a rational argument, it's an emotional one, and I'm not sure if I believe it.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#89

Post by forthefuture »

mjfl wrote: post #43
monk_e_boy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of saving? One car crash and it's wiped out. You save and delay the gratification, but it never comes. You save and save and save, then some bad luck wipes it out. You lose a job. A vet bill. A friend needs a room and some food. Or spend the money today on some burgers and a DVD for the kids. Get hugs and kisses and a full belly. Poor people aren't stupid. You seem to think they are. She may go to sc…

I don't agree. In the circumstance that all those bad things happen, you are obviously better off if you did save. Get an infection and can't afford antibiotics, you could possibly die, whereas you could survive if you had money. Kid grows up and you can't pay for college, "Oh honey, we didn't expect you to be so smart so we spent the money on burgers."

I don't think it's as common as you think for parents to pay for college.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#90

Post by zo1 »

intopieces wrote: post #62
mercer wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that whenever I'm inclined to unsympathetic to the experience of another person, it's best to stop and remind myself that most people try their best to be good and happy, and care for those that are close to them, and that perhaps I'm just missing something. In this particular case, I'd argue that in many areas of the USA, cars are not a luxury, they're essential to moving around in the (to me) odd car-based i…

"intellectually lazy" is the correct term, even a bit polite. The idea behind this discussion is to look at why people are poor and to find ways - real, concrete, actionable ways - to improve the situation for the poor. Judgements based on personal experience do not fit within this discussion because they are entirely beside the point.

>"Judgements like 'well I was poor and now I'm rich - your story is fake' do not fit within this discussion because they are entirely beside the point."

That's obviously not what he is saying. Your doing way more than paraphrasing with that one.

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