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When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

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Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#221

Post by cauterized »

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #123
tbrownaw wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you objectively measure the productivity of a programmer? Or of a secretary / office assistant / whatever they're called these days (the person who's job is to make life easier for other people, so that said other people can get more of their own work done)? If it was possible to objectively measure productivity, there wouldn't be any of these huge arguments about pay fairness.

You don't. You assume that, innate talents being equal, women are equal to men in terms of productivity. I mean, this is the stated intention of the Feminist movement in a nutshell, yes? And then you take a look at the other stats (as I mentioned, females take more leave. And females are more likely to have a child and stop working [1]. And there are the liability issues, ironically caused by the Feminist movement.)…

Given that employees only stay for a couple years on average anyway these days, you're far more likely to lose either a male or female employee to a job switch than to lose a female employee to maternity leave. It's a highly overestimated risk. Not to mention extremely unfair to women who don't have kids.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#222

Post by TheLoneWolfling »

acveilleux wrote: post #155
TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men take less paternity leave on average than women take maternity leave. Not to mention that in the case of single births, you'll end up with the women taking maternity leave while the men don't. And with marriage stats the way they are... Which means that it's still advantageous for the company to hire men over women. Amortizing costs doesn't magically make the cost go away, it just hides it.

Depends on locale. In Quebec, men pretty much always take their paternity leave (at least 3 weeks, up to 5) and most of the maternity leave can be transferred to the father (up to 25-32 weeks, leaving the mother the minimum of 15-18 weeks) as well. That last part is uncommon but it does happen when the mother is the couple's highest earner (say a partner in a legal firm or a doctor) since the mat leave benefits are c…

Incorrect. Yes, Quebec has less of a split than elsewhere in Canada. However it's 97% of females take paid leave versus 72% of males, and 48.4 weeks paid leave on average versus 5.5 weeks. That's not exactly on par. And I don't know in what universe 76% is considered "pretty much always".

And it doesn't even cover the case when the mother and father split before birth.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-008-x/2012002/article/11697-...

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#223

Post by TheLoneWolfling »

mystique wrote: post #147
TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also an issue with maternity leave. Maternity leave means that women effectively cost more than men for the same amount of work, in the long run and on average. This can be mitigated by laws, but cannot be eliminated without addressing the underlying social issues. And no, mandatory paternity leave doesn't eliminate it, as there are more single mothers than single fathers. The logic is simple. Companies survi…

In the lifetime of a woman, how many maternity leaves does she take? On average it would be twice and very few women I know have taken more than 8 weeks. The way you put makes it sound like women take 6 months+ time off and everyone else has to pay for it.

The way I put it makes it sound like women take 6+ months time off because, oddly enough, women take 6+ months time off. The average in Canada is 39.6 weeks paid leave. Note that that figure is for children aged 1-3, how many weeks paid leave did their mothers take. The average per women will be higher.

The plural of anecdote is not data, and you are no exception.

StatCan: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-008-x/2012002/article/11697-...

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#224

Post by TheLoneWolfling »

cauterized wrote: post #221
TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't. You assume that, innate talents being equal, women are equal to men in terms of productivity. I mean, this is the stated intention of the Feminist movement in a nutshell, yes? And then you take a look at the other stats (as I mentioned, females take more leave. And females are more likely to have a child and stop working [1]. And there are the liability issues, ironically caused by the Feminist movement.)…

Given that employees only stay for a couple years on average anyway these days, you're far more likely to lose either a male or female employee to a job switch than to lose a female employee to maternity leave. It's a highly overestimated risk. Not to mention extremely unfair to women who don't have kids.

[Citation needed]

I have been linking the numbers behind my arguments. If you wish to show the numbers behind yours, I would be more than happy to discuss them.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#225

Post by TheLoneWolfling »

nawitus wrote: post #149
TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't. You assume that, innate talents being equal, women are equal to men in terms of productivity. I mean, this is the stated intention of the Feminist movement in a nutshell, yes? And then you take a look at the other stats (as I mentioned, females take more leave. And females are more likely to have a child and stop working [1]. And there are the liability issues, ironically caused by the Feminist movement.)…

Can someone respond to these points instead of just downvoting?

Extension of this:

Can someone please respond to these points with actual numbers to back their points?

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#226

Post by odonnellryan »

baby wrote: post #145
odonnellryan wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this include bonuses?

I have no idea. I got interested by their "culture" but didn't dig that far in the "paycheck" realm.

Ahhh. I just see the CEO pay as being "little." I mean, a good dev can earn that much.

I know several ~30 person companies where the CEO/owner is making at least 1mil a year after bonuses.

It's insane. I'd love to see what you linked more often - highest salary (they did start the company) but not by a factor of 10! So it just got me curious.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#227

Post by odonnellryan »

FigBug wrote: post #91
odonnellryan wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this unusual? You worked for a contracting/consulting firm directly? The running rate for IT (not programming) work is $150/hr east-coast. That can get cut down, but is often even higher. The industry doesn't pay these techs more than $30 an hour.

For $30 an hour I hope they are employees, not contractors, otherwise they are getting ripped off. Bill out rates for employees are usually a lot higher than their salary. The company has to pay for non-billable hours, office space, medical insurance, benefits, computers, tools, etc. In my previous experience, the bill out rates for sub-contractors is usually a lot closer to what they actually get paid since they nee…

Oh sure, they're hired as salary (or hourly) employees of the parent contracting company. These aren't subcontractors.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#228

Post by lotsofmangos »

nawitus wrote: post #211
lotsofmangos wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the state pays then the companies are paying anyway, and it is still a spread cost as long as anti-discrimination law is being enforced. The continued existence of the species through childbirth is something that organizations should really factor into their budgets. Is not exactly a difficult cost to foresee as people have been doing it for quite a while now.

>If the state pays then the companies are paying anyway Yes, but it's better for the state to pay it so that because if companies pay maternity leaves completely, the cost is not distributed evenly. >The continued existence of the species through childbirth is something that organizations should really factor into their budgets. I disagree, that should be the responsibility of the state and individual families. >Is n…

I take it that this entrepreneur thought that group insurance wasn't worth bothering with.

edit - I am not against the state picking up the tab, by the way. I just think it is one of those costs that could be paid either way and I have limited sympathy for employers who complain that they couldn't possibly be expected to plan for the eventuality that some of their employees might become parents.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#229

Post by nickbauman »

zenogais wrote: post #185
nickbauman wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a framing issue. (vo·ca·tion: late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin vocatio(n-), from vocare "to call.") I like to read, take long walks, talk to my spouse in an unplanned, sporadic way because by their very nature, those things are not really "vocations". This is about what CALLS you to work, not about what's necessarily pleasurable or a pastime.

The concept of a vocation is a fairly recent invention, mostly arising out of the Protestant brand of Christianity. Work has been disdained throughout most of history [1]. Therefore, I would say that liking your work or finding your calling are not things that everyone can even do or has to do. The idea of a vocation strikes me more as intellectual rationalizations arising in tandem with the current economic mode of…

That's very interesting. I suspect folks like Marcus Aurelius, Lao Tze, Socrates, Murasaki Shikibu and their ilk knew what a "calling" was long before there was a word for it.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#230

Post by nickbauman »

Amezarak wrote: post #182
nickbauman wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a framing issue. (vo·ca·tion: late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin vocatio(n-), from vocare "to call.") I like to read, take long walks, talk to my spouse in an unplanned, sporadic way because by their very nature, those things are not really "vocations". This is about what CALLS you to work, not about what's necessarily pleasurable or a pastime.

No, I understand that. What I'm saying is that I have no "calling" and do not expect to ever have a calling. I do development work because it makes me money, I am very good at it, and solving solvable problems feels nice, but if you dropped 10 million in my lap I doubt I would ever touch a line of code again. Barring the vicissitudes of fortune, I'd spend the rest of my life relaxing, spending time with people I like…

So if I said I'd pay you x more amount than what you're currently making, to don a rubber smock and pack pickles for a living for the rest of your life, is it just a question of what x is?
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