When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid' • Hacker News Board

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#141

Post by tbrownaw » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:25 PM UTC

forgotpasswd3x wrote: post #122

kaitai wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not despicable. As a woman, I'll repeat: paying women less for being women is not despicable. That doesn't mean it's good. It's bad. But it's normal and there are a lot of social forces at work. Good, well-meaning people have all sorts of logical reasons to pay women or minorities or handicapped people less. You don't have to be evil to participate in a sucky system. We all do, even the virtuous ones. So, open y…

Could you give an example where a good, well-meaning person would have a logical reason to pay a minority less?

Work that involves in-person meetings with customers who are known to not like minorities. (If they're paid on commission, this will happen even without the employer actively deciding anything.)

If that particular minority is strongly correlated to cultural values that clash strongly with the organizational culture. (And said values clash would likely result in slower career progression even if the minority status is deliberately ignored.)

There exist conceivable situations where minority (or other protected) status could actually directly affect job performance, or be correlated to something that affects job performance.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#142

Post by rokhayakebe » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:29 PM UTC

wyclif wrote: post #99

rokhayakebe wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it that women get underpaid or is there more to it? Women and men should also tell every woman they know to negotiate their pay. The first offer is not something anyone has to take, and while this may be self evident here, it isnt everywhere.

Women engineers should be encouraged to learn how to negotiate salary themselves, or from a mentor. They should also be encouraged to view salary negotiation as a positive part of their soft skills, rather than a necessary evil.

I think it is women in all fields. I was talking to a lady friend about a job offer she got and advised she negotiate her salary. From her response it sounded as if I was trying to get her to loose the opportunity.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#143

Post by nickbauman » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:29 PM UTC

sxp wrote: post #117

nickbauman wrote: post #108

Didn't everyone work this issue out when they first entered the work force? Soon after I got my first job out of college my employer told me it was "not a good idea to talk about your compensation" with my co-workers. You know how they say "consider the source" when you get information? Why would my employer not want me to share my compensation with my co-workers? _Because it benefits them_ if their workforce is obli…

If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work but are expected to be making the same amount as you. For large companies, this would be people in different divisions who have the same title and years of experience. For small companies, you will probably need to talk to people…

Honest question: Why is it awkward? I think if people dig down deep and think about the answer to this question, there is no reason for this. Because nobody is ever paid what they're "worth."

Assume for a moment that you don't need the money. Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren't, then I assert you are in the process of tacit self-immolation.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#144

Post by tbrownaw » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:32 PM UTC

Udik wrote: post #101

paulhauggis wrote: post #88

If all salary was displayed publicly it wouldn't help the employee. It would take almost all negotiating abilities away (a senior developer with 5 years of experience will be paid the same rate as a senior developer with 10 years because companies don't want unhappy employees and people with the same titles will be upset they are not paid the same rate) and allow many companies to legally collude and pay similar rate…

I agree. When salaries are not public, there is just one factor that influences them, that is, the value that the company puts on that employee and the fear of losing him/ her to a better offer. On the other hand, it's much easier for the company to reject a request for a pay rise because it might upset other employees. Note, this mechanism only works downwards: the company will never give a pay rise to nine employee…

Note, this mechanism only works downwards: the company will never give a pay rise to nine employees on the grounds that the tenth already has a higher salary.

You assume the outlier will always be at the high end. What happens when instead of one person being paid much more than everyone else, it's one person that's paid much less than everyone else?

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#145

Post by baby » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:35 PM UTC

odonnellryan wrote: post #90

baby wrote: post #89

Take a look at buffer: https://open.bufferapp.com/introducing-open-salaries-at-buff... all salaries are public in a spreadsheet. _YOU_ can see what everyone is getting paid. I think it's pretty interesting.

Does this include bonuses?

I have no idea. I got interested by their "culture" but didn't dig that far in the "paycheck" realm.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#146

Post by acveilleux » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:39 PM UTC

tbrownaw wrote: post #131

sxp wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work but are expected to be making the same amount as you. For large companies, this would be people in different divisions who have the same title and years of experience. For small companies, you will probably need to talk to people…

If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work What about things like everyone writing down how much they make and putting it in a hat? Everyone gets all the numbers and how they compare with everyone else, but doesn't know which other number goes with which person.

This kind of anonymity is dependent on there being enough names in the hat. In small companies, the hat might contain only 2-3 slips.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#147

Post by mystique » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:41 PM UTC

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #41

throwaway217384 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting question. I think many, men and women, are still biased against women because they believe they are catty and dramatic or are afraid of increased legal issues (lawsuits). These are obviously not reality either and it too sucks.

There's also an issue with maternity leave. Maternity leave means that women effectively cost more than men for the same amount of work, in the long run and on average. This can be mitigated by laws, but cannot be eliminated without addressing the underlying social issues. And no, mandatory paternity leave doesn't eliminate it, as there are more single mothers than single fathers. The logic is simple. Companies survi…

In the lifetime of a woman, how many maternity leaves does she take? On average it would be twice and very few women I know have taken more than 8 weeks. The way you put makes it sound like women take 6 months+ time off and everyone else has to pay for it.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#148

Post by tbrownaw » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:41 PM UTC

paulhauggis wrote: post #88

If all salary was displayed publicly it wouldn't help the employee. It would take almost all negotiating abilities away (a senior developer with 5 years of experience will be paid the same rate as a senior developer with 10 years because companies don't want unhappy employees and people with the same titles will be upset they are not paid the same rate) and allow many companies to legally collude and pay similar rate…

a senior developer with 5 years of experience will be paid the same rate as a senior developer with 10 years because companies don't want unhappy employees and people with the same titles will be upset they are not paid the same rate

Really? People are all too stupid to understand the value of experience or skill? Personal experience says this is nonsense.

and allow many companies to legally collude and pay similar rates

Have you looked at any news about how horribly ineffective OPEC is? There are too many countries with too much capacity outside the cartel, countries in the cartel cheat on their quotas, ... .

Cartels are not as effective as you think they are.

For the individual, not having public salary works great because you really do have negotiating power.

Say what? The companies already know how much they're paying everyone else. The only one who doesn't know is you.

If my next company knows that all other companies in the industry are paying 20% less for my position, why would they pay me more?

Because you can make a convincing argument that you're worth 20% more.

I've never understood why smart people want to willingly give the more powerful in this world even more tools that will work against them.

The powerful already have those tools. This is about giving those same tools to the less powerful as well.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#149

Post by nawitus » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:42 PM UTC

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #123

tbrownaw wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you objectively measure the productivity of a programmer? Or of a secretary / office assistant / whatever they're called these days (the person who's job is to make life easier for other people, so that said other people can get more of their own work done)? If it was possible to objectively measure productivity, there wouldn't be any of these huge arguments about pay fairness.

You don't. You assume that, innate talents being equal, women are equal to men in terms of productivity. I mean, this is the stated intention of the Feminist movement in a nutshell, yes? And then you take a look at the other stats (as I mentioned, females take more leave. And females are more likely to have a child and stop working [1]. And there are the liability issues, ironically caused by the Feminist movement.)…

Can someone respond to these points instead of just downvoting?

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#150

Post by nawitus » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 7:43 PM UTC

aklemm wrote: post #126

wyager wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If women are actually, objectively, less productive workers (if your explanation is correct), why is it wrong for companies to pay them less?

If maternity leave really is a large cost, then the reason not to pay them less is because we all have a stake in the healthy propagation of the species. Women bare the children, but that doesn't mean they ought to bare the entire burden of it.

I don't think individual companies have such a responsibility. It's better to have the state pay for these costs.