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British Spy Agency Considers Journalists a Threat, Vacuums Up Their Emails

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Re: British Spy Agency Considers Journalists a Threat, Vacuums Up Their Emails

#31

Post by nitrogen »

cbd1984 wrote: post #11
AdeptusAquinas wrote: post #6

To me, this all smacks of weakness. If they were not breaking the law (at least in spirit), they wouldn't fear journalists. If they were capable of preventing or at least showing the danger of the acts they claim to fight, they wouldn't fear journalists. But because the danger is perhaps not as immediate or as severe as the political narrative might suggest, or because their intrusions into our privacy are not as nec…

So if the government weren't doing anything wrong, it wouldn't have anything to hide? ;) You know, that logic might actually work in this case.

Yes, the nothing-to-hide-nothing-to-fear logic is reversed. Governments should be transparent to their people, not the other way around.

Re: British Spy Agency Considers Journalists a Threat, Vacuums Up Their Emails

#32

Post by jon-wood »

nbevans wrote: post #14
xnull4guest wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you be more specific about what massive reductions in Europe-wide security resulted from the publications, and how they presumably would have stopped the Charlie Hebdo attacks?

Well, just search. But even just last week there was an article from a UK minister explaining that many dozens of Paris-style attacks have already been averted in Europe as a result of GCHQ spying. But that the tide is now growing so strong, and the terrorists much more wise after the Snowden leaks, that it is basically inevitable now that the UK itself will be attacked. The terror plot/arrests in Belgium recently we…

> Whenever you see "terror arrests made during dawn raid" on the news in UK, it's easy to dismiss it. But it happens pretty much every month now, and has been like that for a couple years now.

There are two options here. One is that there really are monthly plots to attack civilians in the UK, and these raids are genuinely saving lives. The other is that bring able to point at terrorists threatening our city centres is a very convenient way to distract people from the real issues.

How many of these raids are against real credible threats, and how many are people with a grudge getting hit for discussing the wrong thing? Unfortunately we're unlikely to know since so many of the trials are held in secret to protect the evidence being given.

Re: British Spy Agency Considers Journalists a Threat, Vacuums Up Their Emails

#33

Post by nitrogen »

xnull2guest wrote: post #24
guelo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was implying you are British, sorry for my mistake. It seemed like a macho British thing to do to try to deflect attention from this latest scandal by saying that the US is worse. (the UK is much worse).

My guess is that the UK is much worse than America based on their track record, history and handing of the Guardian documents. I don't live there or follow their politics as closely, so I don't have a list compiled for them. It should also be said that there are many other countries that assuredly ARE worse than America with regard to the treatment of journalists. I have never been interested in 'lesser of two evil'…

A bit OT: what is the connection between the various xnullnguest accounts?

Re: British Spy Agency Considers Journalists a Threat, Vacuums Up Their Emails

#34

Post by nitrogen »

nbevans wrote: post #14
xnull4guest wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you be more specific about what massive reductions in Europe-wide security resulted from the publications, and how they presumably would have stopped the Charlie Hebdo attacks?

Well, just search. But even just last week there was an article from a UK minister explaining that many dozens of Paris-style attacks have already been averted in Europe as a result of GCHQ spying. But that the tide is now growing so strong, and the terrorists much more wise after the Snowden leaks, that it is basically inevitable now that the UK itself will be attacked. The terror plot/arrests in Belgium recently we…

Whenever you see "terror arrests made during dawn raid" on the news in UK, it's easy to dismiss it. But it happens pretty much every month now, and has been like that for a couple years now.

Did you sleep through V for Vendetta?

Re: British Spy Agency Considers Journalists a Threat, Vacuums Up Their Emails

#35

Post by DanBC »

deciplex wrote: post #12
louthy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the NSA isn't doing this also? They're totally above board?

Honestly, the GCHQ does seem a lot more brazenly nefarious than the NSA. A lot of the shit that comes out of the mouths of GCHQ spokespersons, shows open contempt and disdain for civil liberties and due process. At the NSA, it's more like they just don't respect those things, or think fighting terrorism/drug cartels/flavor of the month, is more important. If I could choose to dismantle one or the other, I'd go with t…

They show contempt for civil liberties but claim to operate within the law. Since GCHQ is specifically mentioned (and pretty much exempted) in most surveilance related laws this seems plausible.

There is weakness in the oversight that GCHQ is supposed to have.

Re: British Spy Agency Considers Journalists a Threat, Vacuums Up Their Emails

#36

Post by deciplex »

DanBC wrote: post #35
deciplex wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the GCHQ does seem a lot more brazenly nefarious than the NSA. A lot of the shit that comes out of the mouths of GCHQ spokespersons, shows open contempt and disdain for civil liberties and due process. At the NSA, it's more like they just don't respect those things, or think fighting terrorism/drug cartels/flavor of the month, is more important. If I could choose to dismantle one or the other, I'd go with t…

They show contempt for civil liberties but claim to operate within the law. Since GCHQ is specifically mentioned (and pretty much exempted) in most surveilance related laws this seems plausible. There is weakness in the oversight that GCHQ is supposed to have.

"We operate according to the law, because we are not governed by laws."

Re: British Spy Agency Considers Journalists a Threat, Vacuums Up Their Emails

#37

Post by secfirstmd »

threeseed wrote: post #30
AdeptusAquinas wrote: post #6

To me, this all smacks of weakness. If they were not breaking the law (at least in spirit), they wouldn't fear journalists. If they were capable of preventing or at least showing the danger of the acts they claim to fight, they wouldn't fear journalists. But because the danger is perhaps not as immediate or as severe as the political narrative might suggest, or because their intrusions into our privacy are not as nec…

Are you serious ? They don't consider journalists a threat but rather a source. Many of the modern terrorist organisations I am sure are sending videos, hostage details etc to newspapers in order to promote themselves and their cause. Makes sense that agencies would target them. I definitely believe that there should be laws against though. Surely in the process of looking for terrorists the agencies must be finding…

Disagree.

Intelligence agencies like GCHQ have targeted journalists for years, mostly out of fear that they will miss any embarrassing strategic stories which embarrass their political masters. There are tons of pre-Internet scandals related to intelligence agencies wrong-doing being exposed by the media - especially in places like Northern Ireland during the Troubles. Look at the work of journalists like Peter Taylor, John Weir and stories like Murder on the Rock, Stevens Enquiry, Shoot to Kill, etc etc

The problem was that intelligence agencies never defined and acknowledged the difference between protecting from embarrassment when they got caught doing something wrong and protecting from security threats.

Re: British Spy Agency Considers Journalists a Threat, Vacuums Up Their Emails

#38

Post by dublinclontarf »

mercurial wrote: post #25
nbevans wrote: post #3

After all the stuff the Guardian published, and which has directly resulted in a massive reduction in Europe-wide security from terrorism, it's easy to see why. The Paris terror attacks probably would have been stopped if Snowden/Guardian never happened or was better controlled in how the specific details were announced. UK's spy agency has more powers than the NSA can dream of; and is largely responsible for protect…

> The Paris terror attacks probably would have been stopped if Snowden/Guardian never happened or was better controlled in how the specific details were announced. Citation needed. What do you know of their electronic communications? The thing is, even if it was true, which I frankly doubt... would it be worth it? The direction many US and EU politicians, especially David Cameron [1], want to go in, is a world withou…

To add to this, the security services in France already knew about the threat from the Paris attackers and did nothing.

Re: British Spy Agency Considers Journalists a Threat, Vacuums Up Their Emails

#39

Post by iwwr »

ProAm wrote: post #15
AdeptusAquinas wrote: post #6

To me, this all smacks of weakness. If they were not breaking the law (at least in spirit), they wouldn't fear journalists. If they were capable of preventing or at least showing the danger of the acts they claim to fight, they wouldn't fear journalists. But because the danger is perhaps not as immediate or as severe as the political narrative might suggest, or because their intrusions into our privacy are not as nec…

They don't do it out of weakness, they do it for power and control.

They do it because they can and no consequences if they do.

Re: British Spy Agency Considers Journalists a Threat, Vacuums Up Their Emails

#40

Post by fit2rule »

eru wrote: post #27
balladeer wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MY LORD, The Last time I had the honour of being in your Lordships company I will be honest. I couldn't read past this. I just couldn't. I hope you do not fail to see the point.

What's your point? Sorry, I am but a humble unAmerican and might be hard of understanding.

It is a level of groveling that no free man should willingly endure, nor require.
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