The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan • Hacker News Board

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#181

Post by NovaS1X » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 10:15 PM UTC

ANTSANTS wrote: post #159

nemothekid wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he shouldn't have been surprised when his site started hemorrhaging users who were there entirely for the freedom of speech they enjoyed. Is this an accepted stat or is this a soundbite used by 8chan supporters? I've seen this repeated often, but it doesn't seem true. According to the archive stats ( https://archive.moe/vg/statistics/activity/ , https://archive.moe/a/statistics/activity/ , https://archive.moe/v/sta…

> Is this an accepted stat or is this a soundbite used by 8chan supporters? The qualifier you missed is "who were there entirely for the freedom of speech they enjoyed." There are some 60-80,000 daily users of 8chan right now, even in spite of the constant DDoSes the site has suffered over the past few weeks, and that number is only increasing; they had to come from somewhere . I've visited 4chan a few times since th…

>there is still a more than sufficient critical mass of people in the communities that have no other home on the internet that could keep the site going.

This comment is exactly where my head is at and has been my connection with 4chan.

I had a very rough time in my teens, and my mother and I moved to new cities or towns every year or two. It was hard to keep friends and consider a place home. 4chan was the constant in my life where I could always escape to be comfortable and amongst people who shared my hobbies while experiencing free-speech without the repercussions of identity. No other site offers this like 4chan does, and I've seen plenty of other chans over the years, so, I'm skeptical about 8ch.

I know a lot of people who feel the same way. I'm scared for the future of what I consider my home.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#182

Post by Uhhrrr » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 10:17 PM UTC

devindotcom wrote: post #151

Uhhrrr wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The journalist involved in the initial scandal worked for Kotaku, a Gawker site.

there was no "initial scandal"

The initial scandal was that Nathan Grayson had been friends with the relatively unknown developer of Depression Quest for a long time, to the point of getting thanked in the credits of the game. He then plugged it, here:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/01/08/admission-quest-v...

And also covered her here:

http://tmi.kotaku.com/the-indie-game-reality-tv-show-that-we...

...without disclosing the relationship. Which could have been resolved with a simple apology and adding disclosure to the articles, but several major game sites instead responded with such a storm of ridiculous charges that game journalism was instantly sullied even more than it already was.

Because of this, GamerGate has been poorly covered in most game sites and rags like TechCrunch, so it's not surprising that you hadn't heard of this.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#183

Post by brymaster » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 10:20 PM UTC

devindotcom wrote: post #173

Karunamon wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you care to elaborate on this further? The number of people who disagree with GamerGate, who are willing to deeply go into their reasons why, is very very tiny in my experience. Usually all you get is "gamergate is about harassing women", a link to an instance where trolls have done precisely that, and nothing further. Absolutely nothing to directly rebut the constant refrain that most people in the movement ar…

People have elaborated on it for months. It's so thoroughly discredited in every way that if you don't see it now, you're not going to. Consider it "unfairly maligned" if you want - no one cares any more.

> People have elaborated on it for months. It's so thoroughly discredited in every way that if you don't see it now, you're not going to. Consider it "unfairly maligned" if you want - no one cares any more.

Oh the corrupt journos showed up. I wonder why. https://twitter.com/totalbiscuit/status/521737847758663680

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#184

Post by hackuser » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 10:24 PM UTC

tootie wrote: post #174

mahranch wrote: post #54

The problem I see with his retiring is one I've experienced on reddit as a moderator. When someone higher than you "retires" or goes otherwise inactive, yet still retains the power they hold, they inevitably come back. It's guaranteed. Even if it's only for a day. That doesn't sound like a problem at first, but it's a HUGE problem. Why? Because new policies, rules or ways of handling things get enacted or evolve and…

This was actually the plot of Ran ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ran_%28film%29 ). The lord retires and divides his territory amongst his sons, but retains his title. His sons resent that he carries himself as lord even after they have inherited the land and conflict ensues. It's an absolutely enthralling and gorgeous film.

Veering way off-topic:

A gorgeous film and one of my favorites. It's a retelling of Shakespeare's "King Lear" set in Japan by the great, great director Akira Kurosawa.

However, the King does not attempt to reclaim or exercise power; his children abuse him once he has surrendered it and is defenseless. It's a story about power and cruelty; the rashness of old age (and youth); the consequences of his prior life; trust, love and loyalty; and consequences.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#185

Post by mafribe » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 10:28 PM UTC

ijk wrote: post #176

Karunamon wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you care to elaborate on this further? The number of people who disagree with GamerGate, who are willing to deeply go into their reasons why, is very very tiny in my experience. Usually all you get is "gamergate is about harassing women", a link to an instance where trolls have done precisely that, and nothing further. Absolutely nothing to directly rebut the constant refrain that most people in the movement ar…

No, they're primarily picking fights with individuals and systematically distracting everyone from the actual corruption of monied interests. Every so-called ethics issue that GamerGate has highlighted has been a hugely overblown misinterpretation, while several major ethical issues, such as the attempt to tightly control what YouTubers could and could not say about Shadows of Mordor, were ignored by GamerGate. Major…

What concrete evidence have you for GG killing dogs, SWATing and bomb threats?

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#186

Post by saganus » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 10:31 PM UTC

Eclyps wrote: post #76

mahranch wrote: post #54

The problem I see with his retiring is one I've experienced on reddit as a moderator. When someone higher than you "retires" or goes otherwise inactive, yet still retains the power they hold, they inevitably come back. It's guaranteed. Even if it's only for a day. That doesn't sound like a problem at first, but it's a HUGE problem. Why? Because new policies, rules or ways of handling things get enacted or evolve and…

Hmm... I don't doubt that this happened to you, or that it does happen often, but as someone who was in charge of a fairly successful online community with tens of thousands of community members and upwards of a million posts, I'm happy to say that I never went back. I did the same as moot in this situation - I prepped the people who I wanted to take over and made the transition slowly until I was doing almost nothin…

Even if I did have access, I certainly wouldn't want to go back and start changing things. I cared deeply about my members and fully trusted my administrative team to do what they thought was best, and sometimes that meant putting aside my own beliefs and trying something different.

Probably what the OP was referring to is precisely this. Apparently you were able to stand by your decision to not come back, but I have a feeling that the OP was referring to those people who actually think they can go away but actually do come back.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#187

Post by Karunamon » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 10:33 PM UTC

probably_wrong wrote: post #171

Karunamon wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you care to elaborate on this further? The number of people who disagree with GamerGate, who are willing to deeply go into their reasons why, is very very tiny in my experience. Usually all you get is "gamergate is about harassing women", a link to an instance where trolls have done precisely that, and nothing further. Absolutely nothing to directly rebut the constant refrain that most people in the movement ar…

Sure thing. I agree with the stated purposes of GG: games journalism needs some serious balancing. For instance, that mailing list in which both journalists and producers are members is an example of a line that should exist and yet doesn't. Hech, even "game developer literally in bed with producers" is something that, properly approached (not the case AT ALL, of course), could have been a valid point. And yet, what…

And yet, what is GG known for? They are being openly misogynistic, attacking anyone who dares speaking against them in a pretty serious way.

Okay, so first off, "attacking" does not imply misogyny. Attacking a woman for any reason that's not directly related to her gender is not misogyny. Period point blank.

Secondly, "What GG is known for" is the perception, the thing I take issue with, "What GG actually does" is something else.

I find it somewhat telling that you (not sure if you did this on purpose or not) characterize the community's response to being called misogynists as "attacking", and you characterize the people throwing the accusations as "speaking against". I'm not sure that any reasonable person would respond with anything but derision at being pre-emptively labeled in this way. Are people not allowed to defend themselves?

What I'm looking for here are facts. It appears, and please correct me with something I can actually verify on my own if I'm wrong here, that basically three people are saying "i'm being attacked because X", without actually backing up that accusation.

The cycle appears to be:

* Person writes incisive article or otherwise does something skeevy (GJP email list)

* Community goes "WTF?"

* Person characterizes this response as harassment.

I see no evidence, none, other than the words of the people concerned (which for obvious reasons, is insufficient evidence), that GG is mass harassing them. THIS IS THE MISSING PIECE OF THE PUZZLE FOR ME. Every time I try to follow the evidence trail, it ends at, in effect "I say I'm being harassed, so I am", with a side order of "The extremists in a group define a group".

I do not accept either of those explanations as true or logical.

And as a follow up, even if we acknowledge the existence of that mass harassment, what effort does the rest of the GG community, the people that are actually part of the revolt for the purposes of journalistic impropriety, need to do that they have not already done?

Loudly state they don't support harassment? Already done. [1].

Form a group to ensure harassers are removed from their ranks? Already done. [2]

Try to assemble a code of conduct for people to follow? Already done. [3].

What else needs to happen?

The problem with your standard is that you allow any group to be trivially discredited by the existence of a minority of troublemakers, either real or invented by the discreditors. The same kind of thing happened to Occupy Wall Street, the difference here is that this is the internet, and we should be able to logically separate troublemakers from non troublemakers.

--

[1]: https://jennofhardwire.wordpress.com/2015/01/06/gamers-discu...

[2]: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23gamergate%20harassment%20pat...

[3]: https://docs.google.com/a/tkware.info/document/d/1WjidVijE_f...

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#188

Post by Maken » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 10:35 PM UTC

IndianAstronaut wrote: post #135

MrDom wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's something that I haven't seen mentioned yet: The last few years, Moot has appeared to have nothing but contempt for the people who post on his site. I imagine a decade of being marinated in the worst the internet has to offer would do that to anybody.

He did create that cesspit and allowed it to thrive and attract the dredges of society. Not until 6 or 7 years into the site did he decide to crack down on the cp posted there. He definitely deserves ridicule.

Does he deserve ridicule for creating one of the few big internet communities where free speech means something? I think he deserves some credit for enduring all these years of enduring the hate of anybody offended by something posted on 4chan.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#189

Post by astrange » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 10:35 PM UTC

makomk wrote: post #118

na85 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, when everyone gets to be king of their own sandcastle, you obviously end up with a larger number of smaller castles. But the not-so-obvious consequence is that because people implicitly know they can just start making their own sand castle, it foments divisiveness because all of a sudden everyone "knows" they can do a better job moderating/curating/whatever, and they're sick of seeing $content_type in what they…

People on 4chan don't just complain, entire board subcultures have completely vanished along with the people in them. For example, /u/ used to be the unofficial lesbian advice and discussion board, and there was an entire community there co-existing happily with the porn posters and seekers. Got wiped out overnight by a new mod who decided the board should be solely for yuri porn, pissing off everyone in the process…

> Got wiped out overnight by a new mod

It is (was) moot's website. Other people aren't the ones who set the rules.

Since the design of the site has official topics for each board, you do have to set limits on what's relevant and make new boards when something new comes up. And it's not always possible to make new boards if you don't have mods for them.

In this case, mixing 2D and 3D can be dangerous. It's also a little unfair in that the yaoi board wouldn't be usable for the same thing.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#190

Post by Karunamon » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 10:40 PM UTC

mafribe wrote: post #180

probably_wrong wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure thing. I agree with the stated purposes of GG: games journalism needs some serious balancing. For instance, that mailing list in which both journalists and producers are members is an example of a line that should exist and yet doesn't. Hech, even "game developer literally in bed with producers" is something that, properly approached (not the case AT ALL, of course), could have been a valid point. And yet, what…

Who were Anita Sarkeesian and Felicia Day doxxed by? Maybe they did it themselves, or their friends did it. Have you got any evidence at all that this is not what happened. After all damseling-in-distress is very lucrative these days. Edit: Downvoters, where is your evidence, where is your evidence, where is your evidence, where is your evidence?

This double standard absolutely boggles my mind, especially in the company of the people who usually inhabit this website.

What evidence is there that prominent GG detractors are receiving harassment for their views? Exactly the same amount of evidence that prominent GG supporters are receiving harassment for their views, yet for some reason, this standard is only applied against some people and not others.

I want to know what that reason is, I want someone reasonable to explain that to me, and I hope beyond all hope it doesn't boil down to "because some of those people have media connections and some don't".