Earlier quoted context omitted.
Probably the same founders who are on Quora, asking why their programmers won't work 80 hour weeks.
Can you link me to some of these so I can laugh?
[deleted]
Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
81–90 of 144 posts
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#82What are you expecting from pre-Series A startups? There are lots of pre-Series A startups with six figures in funding and little to no revenue. For obvious reasons, most of them are not going to be paying $140,000/year and if they are, you might not be comfortable with the runway risk. In terms of equity, since you mentioned that you are the breadwinner for your family, why are you sweating the equity? A lot of folk…
I'd like to start by saying that in many ways, your post is grounded in reality. If you want a well paid, stable job, then yeah, early stage startups with equity probably aren't the best thing for you.
Here's the problem - almost all silicon valley hiring, compensation, equity, and work conditions are now viewed in the context of an absolute insistence from employers that there is a critical shortage of software engineers (remarkably, a claim that is made with absolutely no data on compensation, equity, work conditions, and long term career opportunities offered relative to the jobs available to highly educated and hard working people in other segments of the economy).
So you say that the idea of a well paid job with substantial equity in an early stage startup is a dream, but to a lot of us watching this, it seems like the people being outrageously unrealistic are the ones trying to hire talented programmers for ludicrously low wages and equity. The difference is, I'm not going to congress claiming someone owes me a job on the terms I've decided are fair. But these employers seem to think that if they can't hire under their conditions (in this case, in a company that may be gone in 6 months, at a salary far too low to support a family with a child, with equity too low to be worth much under almost any outcome other than a few shoot-the-moon scenarios), congress needs to get involved in increasing the number of programmers available for hire.
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#83Joel Spolsky had a really interesting insight [+] once about hiring pools: they're disproportionately filled with people who you don't want working for you, because if you're hireable, you exit the hiring pool fairly quickly, and the dynamics of this system quickly mean that the pool is filled full of people who aren't even FizzBuzz qualified. I think the other side of the market is isomorphic to this: any publicly a…
Yes, definitely this.
Don't go through the front door. At most, use publicly listed job ads as a form of research. Never assume they represent all the jobs that are actually available to you.
There is no substitute for actually talking to people and getting to know them. Make your own wishlist of companies you'd like to work for. People running startups who are even minimally competent know they need to network a lot, so they're easy to find and network with.
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#84They're offering you the comp of someone who just graduated, they may not realize that though.
I haven't even graduated and I wouldn't touch that offer with a 10 foot pole.
You may need to recalibrate before graduation, it's about right for recent grads, depending on amount raised and team size of course. You'll get more cash comp post series-A/B/C, with lower % equity.
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you link me to some of these so I can laugh?
http://www.quora.com/How-do-you-make-programmers-work-60-80-... http://www.quora.com/How-can-you-inspire-programmers-to-work...
Yes, thank you. The questions are naive, but the answers do restore my faith in humanity.
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#86In short: you know too much. These salaries are taken by fresh college grads who don't know better, and think the adventure of "a startup" is better than working for a larger company (it can be, but there's no guarantee). Many startup CEOs would like you to believe they are the only ones doing interesting work, but there are plenty of larger organisations that are still fun to work for, and more likely to value you a…
>In short: you know too much. These salaries are taken by fresh college grads who don't know better, and think the adventure of "a startup" is better than working for a larger company (it can be, but there's no guarantee). While you are right, you make it sound like $90K is underpaid for someone right out of college. $90K is pretty good for a promising kid with a fresh degree but no real experience. More than fair; t…
>they are unlikely to get much more at a real company
It depends on the school. For my friends going into software out of college, 90k was towards the bottom end (the top end was more like 200k).
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#87> Who would take these deals? People that are insecure about what they bring to the table. Pre series-A the risks are still huge and the stock should be priced accordingly. Say the founders think a pre series-A company is worth $2M and they offer 0.05% equity you could enter negotiations asking for 1% more if you feel like it (and walk away if it goes below 75% of your counter opening bid) if you can defend the posit…
This is definitely a great negotiation advice. I probably could negotiate better terms. But still it'd still start us (employee and employer) on the wrong foot. They'd think I am being greedy and I'd think this is a place where founders would always try to screw me over - breaking mutual trust - effectively ruining the positive spirit of working together.
This is completely backward. Your perceived worth is tied to your price. You will literally get better treatment and more respect by negotiating a better price.
Not negotiating just makes you look like you don't understand business and shouldn't be trusted with any business decisions.
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#88Don't worry about playing hardball in the negotiation. You can preface your negotiation by saying something like this. "As long as we're on opposite sides of the negotiating table, I am going to do my best to get a fair share of possible upside from your company, and a decent salary. When we conclude this negotiation fairly, we'll be on the same side of the table and working towards the same goals." "Now, I want half…
> time is money at their stage of business.
Yes, this is one of your best sources of leverage, as long as you can take your time and be picky (which you absolutely should be able to do if you're a working programmer).
The longer you keep them talking to you, the better. They can't waste time forever, and their own sunk cost bias works in your favor.
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#89Here's a suggestion, as an experienced developer, why don't you take a risk on yourself and start your own company?
Re: Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what gives?
#90I read this as "this is the worst job at a 'startup' that's never going to have big exit"